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Why Does Jeff Berlin HATE Slapping?

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#62
Well the discussion was really about Jeff Berlin - but it has moved towards personal taste as a valid reason - the point is that nobody has to like anything ...:hmm:

That's the way the argument/debate was going ...so the point is that just because something is incredibly technically difficult - it's no "guarantee" that anybody else will like it!!

So I wasn't generalising in any way - I was just saying that the reason people like things is because they like them (no brainer!) - and how difficult it was to play or what new and unusual techniques were used, is largely irrelevant.

Corinpills and I were agreeing that our personal taste is for "musicality" over "party tricks and "showing off" .....of course, many essentially shallow people may love the latter and think it's great fun ...


...theres' no accounting for taste !! :D
 
#63
Well, I think a lot of this discussion really does pertain to the topic at hand. People get so sensitive when you talk about matters of taste and they start implying that you don't know anything about having fun. It should be noted, though, that Jeff Berlin's whole thing is about being a music commentator and educator. Aprt from his playing, the thing that we all know him for is his columns, his school and his attempts to get some musical criticism going. Not criticism in a negative sense, but like literary critiscism where there are shelves of libraries filled with intelligent human beings discussing and debating the merits of literature.

Jeff Berlin has angered a ton of poeple by pointing out what is obvious to many: that a lot of bass players get away with not actually being very musical by creating a diversionary cluster of notes and noises. That's the truth. In a lot of musical sitautions, jive rules.

For some reason, I always nooice on this board- one ostensibly to discuss bass playing- that any comments beyond "woah, dude- sweet 17 string, nice curly maple" really upset people. Think of the value of players with thousands of hours of playing time actually discussing bass, but people get their undies in a bunch the second anyone actually expresses an opinion.
 
#64
corinpills said:
Jeff has taken some heat for clearly stating and defending musical opinions he's developed over the course of a highly succesful and impressive career. I think the common thread in a lot of his writing, clinics, etc. has been the promotion of greater musicality and recognizing short cuts for what they are. A lot of cats get by with jive in music and you have to give it for someone who calls it like he sees it.
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I agree 100%. I like Jeff's columns because they typically offer a different perspective. Personally, I don't care if I agree with it or if it is "controversial". I only care that it makes me consider something I might not have previously thought about.
 
#65
Bruce Lindfield said:
Corinpills and I were agreeing that our personal taste is for "musicality" over "party tricks and "showing off"
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Exactly what I said - it's not slap that you dislike, it's bad bass playing (I would consider playing with bad taste essentially bad bass playing).
 
#66
corinpills said:
...a lot of bass players get away with not actually being very musical by creating a diversionary cluster of notes and noises. That's the truth. In a lot of musical sitautions, jive rules.
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I may have this comment engraved somewhere. F'ing brilliant!


Jeff Berlin makes a ton of sense (usually). Most people simply get mad after skimming only the surface of his comments (i.e. "Jeff Berlin says metronomes are bad!" :mad: ).
No...., he said they were counterproductive to certain areas of learning new material.

The only thing he said that I dissagree with is "you can't improve (on your instrument) away from your instrument".
I often think through Jazz tunes I've just learned, away from my instrument, before perfoming them, just to get the "mathmatics" of the key/changes a little more clear. I feel this definately improves my initial performances of them, rather than just hitting the changes.
 
#69
Pacman said:
Exactly what I said - it's not slap that you dislike, it's bad bass playing (I would consider playing with bad taste essentially bad bass playing).
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Well - that's how you see it - but a lot of people think of "good" playing as anything that is incredibly difficult to execute physically and "bad", as easy -- I just wanted to make the distinction between tasteful/musical playing and technical difficulty.

Also I never said that I dislike slap - I said in this thread that I really like early slap on 70s funk records - Larry Graham etc. - where the bass line was making the tune funky and I have a nostalgic love for Jazz funk - it just sounds "dated", nowadays to me.

So I still love funky bands like Incognito and I have bought their last 3 or 4 albums - which have great bass lines, but very little slap - however, if I play their first album : "Jazz Funk" - the slap playing sounds embarassingly "out-dated " and cheesy! I just have to turn it off! ;)
 
#71
Davehenning said:
One word:
MARCUS

This is coming from someone who does not like to slap and does not really get much out of hearing it anymore, but in the right hands, it can be just a beautiful as anything else.

Whatever it takes to make the music groove is what matters. Thumb, fingers, whatever.....I don't care, just move me!
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Cool Dave - I agree. I deleted some of my earlier posts as I was getting into a 'Pro-slap' argument - and to be honest I don't like it one way or the other, if musically appropriate it's a great way to emphasise the rhythm of a certain part of the music, triplet-overkill is not making music it's making popcorn. What I like about Wooten's approach when he uses this stuff in a 'song' is that he is just so damn synchopated he's always emphasising the backbeat - the guy just has funk tattooed on his musical sense - he's just a groovy mutha whatever he plays. As Bruce and Cornip have said here too, when you get older and have been playing for a long time, I've been at it 20 years, your musical sense begins (hopefully) to dominate your playing and stuff like frilly fills and excessive wanketty wank just don't cut it next to a clean, cool groove that sits deep in the pocket - the likes of Marcus and Wooten can do this with WHATEVER technique they choose - but alot of the time fingerstyle is the numero uno choice that works best.

Bringing this back to Jeff B - I think his more confrontational statements detract from all the good stuff he says about music - and I think informed yet individual views are exactly what we all need to have - the fact he creates strong reactions in some way suggests that there's a grain of unpalatable truth in what he says. Whether he said this or not, I can't remeber, but it is weird that we bassists get into one particular technique when other instruments seem to combine a variety of techniques as the basis of an over all playing ability. There is no substitute for actual musical knowledge in all its forms, and great technique - but how you employ these abilities - well that's just a matter of taste ;)

M
 
#72
urb_munki said:
Bringing this back to Jeff B - I think his more confrontational statements detract from all the good stuff he says about music - and I think informed yet individual views are exactly what we all need to have - the fact he creates strong reactions in some way suggests that there's a grain of unpalatable truth in what he says. Whether he said this or not, I can't remeber, but it is weird that we bassists get into one particular technique when other instruments seem to combine a variety of techniques as the basis of an over all playing ability. There is no substitute for actual musical knowledge in all its forms, and great technique - but how you employ these abilities - well that's just a matter of taste ;)

M
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I agree as well. Jeff's views are his own and that's fine. No problem. I would rather listen to someone speak about something they believe in, regardless of "what is hip." God bless Rocco.

I just get a little tired of people confusing techniques with music. 90% of the time, the music demands the technique..... a young Graham not having a drummer forced him to develop slap.

I really don't care what kind of trumpet or technique Louis Armstrong was using....I am too busy enjoying his music to bother with it. Outside the actual craft involved with my instrument... I really could not care less how someone is making the music, just as long as it is speaking to me.

I just want to hear music. Not semantics.

peace and happy st. patty's day!
 
#73
Davehenning said:
I agree as well. Jeff's views are his own and that's fine. No problem. I would rather listen to someone speak about something they believe in, regardless of "what is hip." God bless Rocco.

I just get a little tired of people confusing techniques with music. 90% of the time, the music demands the technique..... a young Graham not having a drummer forced him to develop slap.

I really don't care what kind of trumpet or technique Louis Armstrong was using....I am too busy enjoying his music to bother with it. Outside the actual craft involved with my instrument... I really could not care less how someone is making the music, just as long as it is speaking to me.

I just want to hear music. Not semantics.

peace and happy st. patty's day!
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Excellent stuff - in a nutshell yes! And to the last point, I guess I'll be using my sliver of Irish DNA as an excuse for a beer later...;)
 
#75
Maybe he had just came from a book signing at GC? Went in one a while back sounded like a vision of Dante's Inferno for bass players. Every one slapping as fast as they could and as loud as they could.
I like good slap, but these folks were killing the basses not playing them.

Just MHO.
Rusty
 
#76
RLT said:
Maybe he had just came from a book signing at GC? Went in one a while back sounded like a vision of Dante's Inferno for bass players. Every one slapping as fast as they could and as loud as they could.
I like good slap, but these folks were killing the basses not playing them.
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Yes - I can just imagine Jeff Belin as the teacher at a course/workshop/etc. - saying on the first day :

"Forget about all those slap riffs and music store chops - today we're going to talk about making music!!" ;)
 
#77
I caught Jeff several years ago at a music store in Las Vegas doing a workshop/promo gig for Dean Basses. The subject came up about slapping. I don't remember his comments word for word, but it was something to the effect that there are a lot of guys out there slapping - and some of them with amazing technique. He did not want to compete with, or be bunched in with that group. He talked about finding one's own "voice" or "identity" on their instrument, and for him it was about choosing a different path - his own path. I don't remember him putting down slap as a style or technique nor any of his contemporaries who excel in that style. He said some good things about Marcus, and went on to talk about his interest on the bass such as exploring melody and expression. I hope my recollection accurately reflects his opinion at that time. From here on out, let him speak for himself.

Respectfully,
 
#80
a lot of guys don't like slapping, I think it's because it was completely over done during the 90's funk/disco revival. Due in part to bands like Jamiroquai, Brand New Heavies, JTQ! I was part of that scene (be it a small part) and every kid in every band was slapping and popping roots and octaves (including me at the time) thinking it was the only way to be funky. In a lot of kids minds, if you didn't slap, then you wasn't any good. When I got older and learned better, I pretty much refused to play slap, I got into playing harmonics, and chords, and just felt that if you could be funky without slapping, then it would make you stand out a bit more, and it did... I've just started playing a bit of slap again and I forgot how fun it is. every thing in moderation I think.

but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's just mine!
 
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