Why is 250hz such a problem frequency?

[WashburnAB95]

In almost every room I have control over the sound, by far the best thing I can do to improve the sound is to cut around 250hz. If you don't get control over this frequency your whole mix suffers.

Do we as musicians produce to much energy in this band? Is this just have to do with room size? Why are standing waves so common in this band?

You can have other bands out of balance and it doesn't tend to effect the whole mix. Why does this frequency create such "mud" throughout the rest of the spectrum?

 

[callofcthulhu]

That's my favorite frequency.

My SVT's mid selector stays set to 220 and I keep it at 3:00 at all times.

 

[Dave Curran]

250hz is 4 feet, which is a common multiplier in construction?

 

[EastCoastThump]

Spitballing here, but a few issues come to mind:

• Human hearing isn't very sensitive in the lower range (audiologists consider hearing "normal" if the patient can hear tones from 250 Hz-8 kHz). So we're more sensitive to tones in the low-mids than we are to really low tones.

• For bands working small venues, the PA often starts to get effective around 100-125 Hz. So that low-mid range is where any bloat in the mix becomes apparent.

• Those same small PAs are often gigged in corner bars and small clubs that haven't been (*ahem*) acoustically designed. Big bassy standing waves and boundary effects from setting up the bass rig snugged into a corner often emphasize low-mid mud.

• A lot of people *experience* the low mids more in terms of power than articulate tone, so "muddiness" (or heft, to put a positive spin on it) comes with the territory.

• While bass and kick own the low end, a lot of voices in the typical band think they should have some real estate in your ~250 Hz neighborhood. Guitars, keys, and vox often think that the power in their tone lives around there. Add some 250 Hz fatness on snare, and the party gets a little crowded. If you want room for your bass tone to dance, you need to cut away *some* of the low end in other voices. Your bandmates might *want* that extra meat on their soloed tones, but if it doesn't help the mix, trim it. (Be careful not to just automatically cut the bejeebus out of everyone's tone at 250 Hz, though, or you can end up with a thin band mix.)

Here's a nice Invalid Link Removeddemoing low-mid cuts and boosts on elements in a mix. The genre's modern electronic pop, but you can hear how these changes would apply to a bass-drums-guitar-keys mix.

 

[WashburnAB95]

That's my favorite frequency.

My SVT's mid selector stays set to 220 and I keep it at 3:00 at all times.

If you work with a sound guy I am sure he loves you for it

 

[chaosMK]

I've heard of this too. Not just in rooms but also in studio mixes.

I like my low mids on bass but more like around 120-180Hz.

 

[trevcda]

In almost every room I have control over the sound, by far the best thing I can do to improve the sound is to cut around 250hz.

Cut 250hz on what? The system processor eq? An inserted parametric? On a specific instrument? Is one of your crossover points around there? One of my biggest pet peeves is when a BE walks up to a system I'm providing and starts hacking and slashing on the EQ, without even listening to it first, and then giving me the "See? It sounds better now that I've blessed it with my magic, doesn't it?" look. The only thing that makes it funny is that the system eq is in a processor in the amp rack and Mr. I-know-it-all's eq doesn't get patched in unless it's specifically requested.

 

[gumtown]

My take on "250Hz" is "the boxy sound" range,
it sits in the same range as some drums and the bottom end of some guitarists who don't EQ/cut properly

 

[BunchyMutt]

Hmm, if I want a Bruce Thomas - Elvis Costello & The Attractions - tone, I tweak the onboard controls of my SR506: flick my mid selector to 250 Hz and boost; cut the bass slightly; ease off the treble. Get a nice pbass tone.

 

[Downunderwonder]

250hz is 4 feet, which is a common multiplier in construction?

Specifically, the floor to ceiling height in a cosy bar at 8 to 10ft forms a perfect 2 wavelength standing wave boom somewhere in that 250hz zone.

 

[callofcthulhu]

If you work with a sound guy I am sure he loves you for it

 

[wmhill]

250 is were all the punch is around C (4 string) for me. If I'm sounding thin I'll dial up a little more. Like any tone frequency though, too much can be bad

 

[Schlyder]

Where the woolly mud thing lives. A busy frequency zone that just requires finesse.
I think common construction dimensions/standing wave relationship is a cause of many issues also.

 

[mpdd]

i'm never sure what my live tone sounds like, because we play so overdriven, but i know that if i adjust the 250 slider just a little bit from the max it goes from buzz saw cutty to way more subdued in like an 1/8 of an inch

 

[ihixulu]

There is also the issue that many cabs have a mid hump around that frequency, further exacerbating the "problem".

My hunch is this issue was the impetus for Steve Rabe's decision to bake in the cut at ~200hz into his preamp design.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

For me, 210 is the magic frequency. Too much and I sound cloudy and muddy. Too little, and I lose everything. I had a tube preamp with the low mid tone control centered right there, and it was my favorite knob. Since I am back into heads, I have a couple of parametrics I keep in my stable.

 

[two fingers]

I'm going to go out on a limb here. If you are having the trouble in every room you play, my guess (and it is just that) is perhaps your PA cabs have a "problem" with that frequency? I find it hard to believe that in every room you play, the DIMENSIONS of the room are the problem. Too many variables there for me to buy into that.

 

[Doug Parent]

In almost every room I have control over the sound, by far the best thing I can do to improve the sound is to cut around 250hz. If you don't get control over this frequency your whole mix suffers.

Do we as musicians produce to much energy in this band? Is this just have to do with room size? Why are standing waves so common in this band?

You can have other bands out of balance and it doesn't tend to effect the whole mix. Why does this frequency create such "mud" throughout the rest of the spectrum?

When I mix vocals live at my church the proximity effect of the mic and the vocalists mouth seems to really be pronounced in that range. Knowing this helps me clear things up with EQ. Why it is is best explained by: It is what it is.

 

[davy4575]

I usually cut a bit there to free up some space. I prefer a tone that is pretty bright and clanky anyway so it lends itself to desired tone. Frees up a little bit of room on the bigger toms of the drumset and the kick. Ill usually run a hipass on the guitarist that gently slopes up past 350hz or so if they like to downtune and run fat strings.

 

[Schlyder]

I was looking for some good explanations about this phenomenon relating to room dimensions etc... searching on the interwebs .... and I think a partial explanation may be in room modes and room ratios.