Why the difference in nuts?

[TFM94]

Not much of the vibration is transferred down through an intermediate fret, because there's hardly any break angle over it. The pulsing load at that point is all happening horizontally.

It's not much different from playing a harmonic by touching the string without fretting it. You create a node in string oscillation, but that's it. The fret does the same thing. You don't need need to pull the string with your fingers to get a harmonic, and you don't need to transfer vibration at the specific point to create a certain pitch.

 

[micguy]

Not much of the vibration is transferred down through an intermediate fret, because there's hardly any break angle over it. The pulsing load at that point is all happening horizontally.

I studied the Physics of musical instruments in college, with the world’s foremost professor on the subject. I know this stuff.

The string is vibrating in two axes, and the vertical motion is coupling through the fret. My explanation of dead spots will, if you think about it, help you understand the flaw in your thinking. But I’m guessing you’re not going to get it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I studied the Physics of musical instruments in college, with the world’s foremost professor on the subject. I know this stuff.

The string is vibrating in two axes, and the vertical motion is coupling through the fret. My explanation of dead spots will, if you think about it, help you understand the flaw in your thinking. But I’m guessing you’re not going to get it.

Have a nice day.

micguy;

I'm a degreed Mechanical Engineer, and I also studied acoustics. I'm retired from a 40 year career in R & D labs in aerospace and at Disney Imagineering. I've worked extensively with vibration problems in machines, and directly with the mechanical side of audio equipment. I've also spent many years designing and building special speaker cabinets, speakers, and a few microphones for high end recording studios. I understand the mechanical side of musical instruments very well.

And I fully understand dead spots; what causes them and how to work with them. I used to regularly deal with natural frequency resonance problems in my work.

So please don't talk down to me like that.

 

[micguy]

So please don't talk down to me like that.

Here's how you started a couple of your replies to me:

That's not really true.

You are misunderstanding how the vibration is being transferred to the frame.

We're done. I've tried to educate you as gently as I could.

 

[alexclaber]

I respectfully disagree. I almost always play fretless and i really appreciate a ebony zero fret for tone balance to open strings. If my fretted basses had one it would be easier to change string gauges. I'm sure it's just a player preference thing.

I think that means we actually agree!

The main argument I've seen in favour of zero frets (on fretted basses) is that by having the "nut" material the same as the fret material you get a more consistent sound from open to fretted - but as I explained in my previous post that doesn't actually work because your finger behind the fret adds damping so the open strings are brighter. With a fretless bass you'd normally be comparing a bone (or similar) nut to a stopped note on a wooden fingerboard - so the open strings would be brighter because you have a harder material and no finger damping. If you have an ebony zero "fret" then that will make the open strings less bright which will help made the tone from open to stopped more consistent. Does that make sense?

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that for open and stopped notes to be as consistent in tone as possible you do NOT want the nut or zero fret material to be harder than the fingerboard/fret material (fretless and fretted respectively) and ideal you want them to be softer.

 

[mrperkolator]

I studied the Physics of musical instruments in college, with the world’s foremost professor on the subject. I know this stuff.

micguy;

I'm a degreed Mechanical Engineer, and I also studied acoustics. I'm retired from a 40 year career in R & D labs in aerospace and at Disney Imagineering.

I'm sure both of you are knowledgeable, and likely are both right, and are using different words to describe things. I've learned that the best thing humans are good at, is misunderstanding each other. I'm a gold medalist in that event sometimes.

Thing is, many of us come to TB to read about nuance of the bass guitar, much like this thread. An open mind learns. A closed mind never will. Therefore, I like coming here to read. But I cant if the thread gets locked. Neither can anyone else. So let's pivot back to nuts.

@Bruce Johnson would there be any benefit to a headstock shaped like a classical guitar for bass? Should be a higher break angle at the nut.

 

[coy garcia]

I think that means we actually agree!

The main argument I've seen in favour of zero frets (on fretted basses) is that by having the "nut" material the same as the fret material you get a more consistent sound from open to fretted - but as I explained in my previous post that doesn't actually work because your finger behind the fret adds damping so the open strings are brighter. With a fretless bass you'd normally be comparing a bone (or similar) nut to a stopped note on a wooden fingerboard - so the open strings would be brighter because you have a harder material and no finger damping. If you have an ebony zero "fret" then that will make the open strings less bright which will help made the tone from open to stopped more consistent. Does that make sense?

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that for open and stopped notes to be as consistent in tone as possible you do NOT want the nut or zero fret material to be harder than the fingerboard/fret material (fretless and fretted respectively) and ideal you want them to be softer.

such is social media..lol. Makes us sometimes debate with people we agree with . I'm not sure if a nut or zero fret is best cause I'm only a player not a engineer. I just like the zero fret better. I've never had to replace a nut on a fretted instrument that is zero fret. On fretless I want it to be as close to a violin or cello as possible.

 

[coy garcia]

We're both knowledgeable about things within our areas of expertise, which probably have some overlap. We have different theories of where the vibration enters the neck on a bass guitar (we're not both right). I've thought about his, and presented (in a previous post) an experiment that will help us resolve which theory is right. If his theory (the vibration enters the neck at the nut) is right, then it would enter the nut for all strings at all fret positions, and thus all the strings on a bass should behave the same when playing a given note. If my theory is right, then they shouldn't. The simple, and obvious way to observe this behavior is with dead spots - they're the most obvious (and consequential) acoustical behavior we have in bass guitar necks.

So, play a few basses until you find a dead spot (hint - a Jazz neck, G string, somewhere around the 4th through 7th fret). Observe how that behaves. Now play the same note on the D string (5 frets up). does it sound the same? If so, his theory is right. If not, my theory is right.

This is how things are resolved in Science - we have different theories on how things work. We discuss our theories, and what the consequences of each are. We find a place where the theories predict different things. Then we do that experiment. If the results of the experiment disagree with a theory, it's gone. If they agree with a theory, although it might not be a perfect theory (a better theory can usurp it later), but at least for the time being, it stands as a workable theory.

I'm just a player not a engineer or scientist so I won't argue any of your points. What I will say though is Bruce's instruments are miles ahead of any fender, rick, carvin or any others I play. I must assume it's his unique design details. It's worth a try if you can get your hands on one...no dead spots, no seasonal neck adjustments needed and the notes bloom.

 

[mrperkolator]

This is how things are resolved in Science - we have different theories on how things work.

my statements were in effort to cool the room. Clearly you both are knowledgeable. You are clearly solidified in your thinking, and will not budge. So why fight about it? Will fighting with Bruce online accomplish anything?

Your paragraph starting with "This is how things are resolved" is a bit condescending. I know how things are resolved in science since 6th grade. It undercuts the knowledge that you do have. I can almost guarantee there will be someone who dismisses what you have said simply because of your word choice. I enjoy reading TB. I don't want this thread closed because someone, who is knowledgeable, decided to turn it into something silly. Furthermore, I've heard on other online bass discussion forums that there is a general distaste for TB among younger audiences due to many posts that are condescending in nature. For the longevity of TB in general, we all should watch out for our tone to keep the discussion vibrant.

For those of us who enjoy TB for the knowledge, please drop the condescending tone. Many of us are quite knowledgeable. I often know more than I let on, but hide it in order to allow for others to say more. It's something I've learned, and have to remind myself. Listen more, talk less. I learn more that way. Notice I've said nothing about vibration or nuts. That is by design.

As I stated, you seem knowledgeable. I want to hear more, just in a different manner.

 

[fretlessman71]

My bass can beat up your bass!....

 

[RichterScale]

At least the original question was answered correctly, from multiple sources, within the first page.
Always good to get that out of the way, right away.

 

[mrperkolator]

to get this back to nuts..... has anyone tried using a different design such as the one used in classical guitars for a higher break angle? If so, what are your thoughts?

 

[Arie X]

fwiw, i actually design and build acoustic guitars, more so than electrics, and i tend to favor 1/4" wide nuts and saddles. Frankly it's about transferring maximum string energy to the instrument without the detriment of excessive mass. Ramping is not an issue at that width. Also, as has not been pointed out above, it's far easier to compensate a wider acoustic saddle than a narrow one.

Regarding nut break angle on classicals, one will notice that the headstock is generally slotted but the actual set back angle is quite shallow. This has the effect of giving a steeper ramp angle then it appears due to the tuner positioning in the headstock. It's a feature that I tend to take advantage of on my acoustics and it is more work, but at least for me I feel that it brings more opportunity for individuality in the overall design.

Now otoh, when building a "traditional" instrument like a 00-18 or a 000-12 or anything from the Martin catalogue, etc.. there is an expectation or "normalcy" in that buyers are very locked-in to perceptions, and if the saddle is "too-wide !!" people are turned away. On a "modern" fingerstyle with a cutaway, you can afford to "push the envelope" and offer a wider saddle, electronics, etc.. and this will be more acceptable. Not so much with a flatpicker as traditional styles and looks take priority all too often. Here one is often cornered into the typical pyramid style bridge and 1/8" or thinner saddle arrangement. Still do-able of course, but there are other implications to factor in when going that route in terms of energy transfer and bridge mass, bracing arrangement, bridge plate design, etc..

 

[Arie X]

...and to add, don't go too crazy with your headstock angles -you still have to fit the thing into a case without busting the neck!

 

[Flamingo21]

Also, as has not been pointed out above, it's far easier to compensate a wider acoustic saddle than a narrow one.

What does "compensate" mean in this context?

 

[Arie X]

on acoustic guitars of quality, the scale length is compensated much like adjusting the saddles on an electric guitar or base. but instead of having screws and individual saddles available, one has to cut the ramps by hand to set the intonation and string height correctly. in addition to the slight angle (3-5 degrees) one can cut the saddle slot to, on a steel string, the scale length of the B string is additionally extended, and on a nylon string, the G is extended.

having a wider saddle certainly gives you more room to work, and is more forgiving of errors than a narrow one.

as you can imagine you electric folk with your fancy screws, and fancy, decadent hardware have it easy not so in acoustic instrument work. you pretty much get one shot at doing it right or you have to do it again and if you've blown the saddle slot placement, you are even more screwed. on a new instrument i'll usually take around 2 months or so to set this correctly. freshly made acoustic guitars take a good while to stabilize under sting tension.