Why the Road Worn hate?

[MtManiac]

The Roadworns reinforce the "price of everything the value of nothing" statement I made. Everyone wants that vintage piece, but the price is too high for them. Why is it that we must have instant, or nearly instant, gratification? What ever happened to working hard and saving up to get that item?

I'll end my posts on this thread here. I like the debate, and it's interesting. I am old school. I love bass and all things bass, and I'm an advocate.

Like I've been saying - most of the people who like them, like them for the tone and feel, not for the looks. They're a great value IMHO, and no, not everyone wants a vintage bass and owning one of these does not make one a wannabe vintage bass owner. This is not about instant gratification, they just sound and feel awesome, period.

 

[MrRobert]

I see quite a few posts here about people wanting a Road Worn, but without the wear. I very much doubt Fender will end up doing this. I think the price is probably too close to the AV Reissues('62 Jazz, '57 P). They would be competing against themselves. You can buy a used AV for close to what you can buy a new RW for.

I don't Fender takes the used market into consideration when creating and marketing new products, as they have no way of accurately tracking the rapidly changing used market. They aren't competing with themselves in that market at all, since they don't sell used products.
I myself have never purchased a new instrument, but there are obviously millions of people who do, and some portion of that will probably never purchase a used instrument. This is fender's core audience.
I think there is room for a non relic'd roadworn spec bass. The AVRI basses are what, $1500 new and USA made? The new non relic'd RWs could be $999 and fill that segment of their customers that want a lower priced nitro finished "classic inspired" new instrument. I would definitely see the value in that!

 

[MrRobert]

Like I've been saying - most of the people who like them, like them for the tone and feel, not for the looks. They're a great value IMHO, and no, not everyone wants a vintage bass and owning one of these does not make one a wannabe vintage bass owner. This is not about instant gratification, they just sound and feel awesome, period.

I could not agree more. I'm sure there are a few random tools who try to convince their peers or audience that their RW is a 'real vintage bass dripping with mojo' but so what?
Let them be tools!

 

[interp]

I think it's fair to say that most instrument buyers consider basically three factors: sound, playability and looks. The relative importance of each of these factors is different for each buyer, but those who say they would never buy a reliced instrument even if the other two requirements are met are simply saying that they value looks above sound and playability. Not a value judgment, incidentally, the same applies to preferring any particular finish option or color. That's why they call it personal preference.

As for "mojo," whether it's supposedly acquired during the production process or during years of use--it simply doesn't exist, except in the mind of the beholder. You can talk about mojo all you want, how some mojo is 'honest' and some is just a manufacturer's gimmick, etc., etc. The fact is that it is all perception, and it's just silly for anyone to talk about it as an objective thing.

To those who say that relicing an instrument is being fake because it is trying to make the bass look like something it is not, I say this: putting ANY kind of finish on a bass is equally an attempt to make it look like something it is not. It's a piece of wood, for crissake. If it doesn't look like what it really is--a piece of a tree--then it's a form of fakery. Arguing about new, reliced, naturally beat-up, etc. is splitting hairs.

 

[MtManiac]

I don't Fender takes the used market into consideration when creating and marketing new products, as they have no way of accurately tracking the rapidly changing used market. They aren't competing with themselves in that market at all, since they don't sell used products.
I myself have never purchased a new instrument, but there are obviously millions of people who do, and some portion of that will probably never purchase a used instrument. This is fender's core audience.
I think there is room for a non relic'd roadworn spec bass. The AVRI basses are what, $1500 new and USA made? The new non relic'd RWs could be $999 and fill that segment of their customers that want a lower priced nitro finished "classic inspired" new instrument. I would definitely see the value in that!

They certainly do take it into account; a used Fender is as much competition for a new Fender as a new Gibson or Stingray is.

 

[godofthunder59]

Like I've been saying - most of the people who like them, like them for the tone and feel, not for the looks. They're a great value IMHO, and no, not everyone wants a vintage bass and owning one of these does not make one a wannabe vintage bass owner. This is not about instant gratification, they just sound and feel awesome, period.

I have been playing since '71. I have a pretty good collection of vintage basses. When the RW first came out I slagged them off......................... then I played one. These basses play and sound great, I liked them so much I bought a RW J for my bands Zeppelin tribute set. I don't really care what something looks like as long as it sounds and plays good.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Like I've been saying - most of the people who like them, like them for the tone and feel, not for the looks. They're a great value IMHO, and no, not everyone wants a vintage bass and owning one of these does not make one a wannabe vintage bass owner. This is not about instant gratification, they just sound and feel awesome, period.

This is the last post here. Really.

You actually make my point, although I'm sure you didn't realize it. Vintage instruments have that feel and tone because of the fact they are vintage. Made to different specs then today's basses, from materials that were different then today's basses (for example copper wire then was way different then copper wire now in purity and method of manufacture, wood was different then, yada yada), now mellowed with age and their particular paths in their playing life.

So what you are saying is just what I've been saying. Although you personally aren't buying it for the look, you are buying it for the fact it gives you vintage properties at a non-vintage price.

So, in my head, still the same. Having a vintage piece usually means scouring ads ad nauseum, searching for years, saving up the bread and then finally scoring that great piece.

I don't collect, my collection is a collection of players. All but three would be considered vintage probably.

I know that my old Aria Pro II was near perfect in construction and with time and age it got better. It had specs most of today's basses don't have. I love the new Brubaker Brute import series, but you can detect a huge difference in feel of the wood and finish on the necks compared to vintage instruments. Vintage is nearly hand crafted. New mostly CNC and machines with minimal touch labor. The necks on the Brutes are still dynamite, but not anywhere in the stratosphere of my early 80's Kubicki's or even my Dano's and Silvertones.

Value has several meanings. Yes, something is a great "value" if you get a good item at a good price. But that is not the definition I would subscribe to here. Oxford dictionary gives a couple of definitions:

1. the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something:

2. the worth of something compared to the price paid or asked for it

The first definition is the value I speak of. Importance, worth. The terms used here denote something of great import. Maybe a better word is valuable. I think everyone would say a naturally occuring pearl or diamond is valuable. I'm not sure we would equate the word valuable to cultured pearls or synthetic diamonds. They are great values, but not valuable.

The second definition is what most people have come to subscribe value to. Getting a good return on something we paid for that we believe is worth the PRICE. The paint brush set I bought at Lowes for painting my studio was a great "value" at $10 as I got three pretty decent brushes for less then half I would have paid for slightly better brushes individually. But the brushes in the set are still inferior to the individual brushes.

One day in the future I will start my hunt for a well played early '50s P and a '61 stacked knob J. I know I will pay over $10K for either in playable shape. Not mint, playable. I saw one at Gruhns this spring that played well, felt great, but looked like it had been thru several wars. $11K was the asking. I would not say I was getting a great value. I would say I was getting something of value.

Maybe one of the things I take away from this thread it that the trend to flat fingerboards is not what most of the bass community likes, and that they would prefer more radiused fingerboards and a more comfortable neck finish. I agree also that a finish on the body where my arm or wrist rests that I don't stick to would also be great.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

This has been a helluva good discussion, with multiple insights to the bass players (and society's) collective minds. And reasonably civil, to boot.

I'd LOVE to have been a fly on the wall at FMIC when they first brought up the idea of the RoadWorn Series. I'm sure the internal discussions at Fender were as varied and revealing as those here.

 

[ClassicJazz]

And don't get me started on that big ol' piece of plastic on the Marcus Miller Jazz......

LOL! I know were you are going with that and 100% agree!

 

[mcnach]

And if a woman has fake breasts, no matter what she tells herself or anyone else for that matter- "I did it to help my self-esteem" crap blah blah blah......she did it for us guys. Period.
And I thank her. A lot!

Hmmm, they may look ok, but have you felt them?
Nah. Not right.
Can't compare them with the RW finish...

 

[MtManiac]

This is the last post here. Really.

You actually make my point, although I'm sure you didn't realize it. Vintage instruments have that feel and tone because of the fact they are vintage. Made to different specs then today's basses, from materials that were different then today's basses (for example copper wire then was way different then copper wire now in purity and method of manufacture, wood was different then, yada yada), now mellowed with age and their particular paths in their playing life.

So what you are saying is just what I've been saying. Although you personally aren't buying it for the look, you are buying it for the fact it gives you vintage properties at a non-vintage price.

So, in my head, still the same. Having a vintage piece usually means scouring ads ad nauseum, searching for years, saving up the bread and then finally scoring that great piece.

I don't collect, my collection is a collection of players. All but three would be considered vintage probably.

I know that my old Aria Pro II was near perfect in construction and with time and age it got better. It had specs most of today's basses don't have. I love the new Brubaker Brute import series, but you can detect a huge difference in feel of the wood and finish on the necks compared to vintage instruments. Vintage is nearly hand crafted. New mostly CNC and machines with minimal touch labor. The necks on the Brutes are still dynamite, but not anywhere in the stratosphere of my early 80's Kubicki's or even my Dano's and Silvertones.

Value has several meanings. Yes, something is a great "value" if you get a good item at a good price. But that is not the definition I would subscribe to here. Oxford dictionary gives a couple of definitions:

1. the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something:

2. the worth of something compared to the price paid or asked for it

The first definition is the value I speak of. Importance, worth. The terms used here denote something of great import. Maybe a better word is valuable. I think everyone would say a naturally occuring pearl or diamond is valuable. I'm not sure we would equate the word valuable to cultured pearls or synthetic diamonds. They are great values, but not valuable.

The second definition is what most people have come to subscribe value to. Getting a good return on something we paid for that we believe is worth the PRICE. The paint brush set I bought at Lowes for painting my studio was a great "value" at $10 as I got three pretty decent brushes for less then half I would have paid for slightly better brushes individually. But the brushes in the set are still inferior to the individual brushes.

One day in the future I will start my hunt for a well played early '50s P and a '61 stacked knob J. I know I will pay over $10K for either in playable shape. Not mint, playable. I saw one at Gruhns this spring that played well, felt great, but looked like it had been thru several wars. $11K was the asking. I would not say I was getting a great value. I would say I was getting something of value.

Maybe one of the things I take away from this thread it that the trend to flat fingerboards is not what most of the bass community likes, and that they would prefer more radiused fingerboards and a more comfortable neck finish. I agree also that a finish on the body where my arm or wrist rests that I don't stick to would also be great.

No I'm not making your point... You say vintage wood and vintage copper are different - maybe they are and maybe they're not - but the Road Worns are not made of vintage copper and vintage wood, they're made with current copper and current wood. To *vintage specs* except for having been cut using CNC.

They have a worn-in feel, and great tone. If that means I'm looking for instant gratification, then... Meh. I don't see it that way. I just like the feel, and the fact that they're affordable. Whats to complain about?

 

[MtManiac]

Hmmm, they may look ok, but have you felt them?
Nah. Not right.

Yes, and I don't care - me want.

 

[Groover]

You know why dealers love to stock Road Worns?
Because they never have to discount the floor models if they have a scratch on them. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[TRichardsbass]

No I'm not making your point... You say vintage wood and vintage copper are different - maybe they are and maybe they're not - but the Road Worns are not made of vintage copper and vintage wood, they're made with current copper and current wood. To *vintage specs* except for having been cut using CNC.

They have a worn-in feel, and great tone. If that means I'm looking for instant gratification, then... Meh. I don't see it that way. I just like the feel, and the fact that they're affordable. Whats to complain about?

Nothing wrong with liking the feel or that they are affordable. There is nothing better then a bass that you love and its effortless to play, makes music in your hands.

I just am discussing some of the nuance. When you say "I just like the feel and that they're affordable" to me it says that I like the feel of a well played vintage instrument however I for whatever my reasons cannot or would not pay for one (I am not meaning this in any derogatory way, so don't take it that way please.)

Sorta what I was saying. I'm not saying you personally want instant gratification. Its my generalization of a generation of people and a thought process that has become prevelent. Call it the Kardashian factor.

A lot of people today are baraged with advertising and media that espouses things of instant glamour. Like I said in an earlier post, the guy who is manufacturing real yellow diamonds because the demand for people wanting 3+ carat yellow diamonds is out there, but most cannot afford or even come close to affording it naturally occuring (I think the price for a 3+ Carat naturally occuring is at least 3/4 higher then the manufactured ones). So he manufactures real diamonds, but since they are manufactured they have less value then one found naturally occuring. And they become "affordable" (if you consider $25K affordable.)

I don't begrudge anyone who has found a niche and is able to make some $$$ from it. I just see a society that has lost the understanding of quality and craftsmanship and settles often for "good value."

Hey, I like everyone else is feeling the pinch in this economy now. So I understand getting a great playing and feeling bass for something that won't make me miss the next mortgage payment.

Rickenbacker refuses to import. They use modern manufacturing techniques, but there is a level of detail and craftsmanship that goes into every one of their instruments. Something of added value. A lot of people won't even think of buying a true Ric because they think the price is too high. Well, in this case you get what you pay for.

My old, long ago sold Hondo copy of a Ric was great, and yes, was bought because it looked like a Ric but was at a Silvertone price. But I always wanted the real thing, and when I finally got a Jetglo Rick in '97 I felt like I had accomplished something. It was lightyears better then the Hondo, but it was a "mojo" type thing. It definitely sounded more Ric, but it also felt better.

Okay, enough, now I am blathering and babbling.

To each his own. I still love all y'all....

 

[peledog]

Jaco's bass

Fender Jaco bass

Link Removed

Fender Jaco tribute bass

Off the top of my head, I don't know what the differences are between the Fender Jaco, and the Fender Jaco tribute - but, if they were the same specs, and one was 'distressed' - which would you buy and your reason for your choice?

 

[MtManiac]

Jaco's bass

Fender Jaco bass

Fender Jaco tribute bass

Off the top of my head, I don't know what the differences are between the Fender Jaco, and the Fender Jaco tribute - but, if they were the same specs, and one was 'distressed' - which would you buy and your reason for your choice?

I seem to recall they have the same specs. By looks alone, I'd buy the non-distressed one... But same specs don't mean same sound or same feel... Otherwise the vintage reissues would command the same price as vintage, surely. It'd depend on those factors for me.

 

[mongo2]

Off the top of my head, I don't know what the differences are between the Fender Jaco, and the Fender Jaco tribute - but, if they were the same specs, and one was 'distressed' - which would you buy and your reason for your choice?

I bought this one:

Fender Jaco bass

Link Removed

Reason: I didn't like the fake look or feel of the relic versions I played.

 

[shoot-r]

If people did this, the RW series would never exist.

What?

esa, I absolutely guarantee if you were blindfolded and judging with your ears and hands my real "1964" Fender Jazz against my R.W. Jazz you'd prefer the R.W.!!!


And if your judging with your eyes...their darn close.
The visual difference is in the fret board. The R.W.'s frets and board don't show the years of use...yet...as the "64" does.

 

[AMJBASS]

The Jaco Relic is a lot different than the MIA Jaco Signiture. For one thing it is fully Fender Custom Shop made. Select wood, custom shop pickups, and the attention to detail you get from a master builder. The MIA Signiture bass is a good bass. Every Jaco CS Relic I have had the opportunity to hear/play has been stellar.

 

[sailri]

It's like buying those jeans with the holes already cut into them. Why would I buy those? I want a nice pair of jeans, not some cut up piece of trash...


These basses would be great if they weren't painted all nice, then taken to a belt sander just to mess everything up...

Actually a better analogy might be "it's like buying those jeans that already looked (worn or washed or sanded or faded or....)...
I bet NO ONE here buys ONLY jeans that are totally raw denim (unless we have some Cowboys with their dark new Wranglers or some Japanese Raw Denim fans)...

I bet your jeans may not have holes, but they're prewashed, slightly faded, have a little bit of dye pattern effect going on them. In other words, a little bit stylish or (do I dare say it) like they've got a little bit of mojo to them. Even if they are "new" Levi's.

That's been my experience with the Road Worns I've tried - they are new but comfortable. Like your new jeans.