Double Bass Why two grips?

[Julius]

Does anyone knows the history of why double bass has develope to two grips and not just one as for cello, Viola and violin?

 

[LouisF]

Because of the Baroque gamba bows were held, underhand like the German bow. The "squeezing" between thumb and first two fingers dictated the tension on the bow: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[BassFalcon]

There’s technically a few more if you count Alsatian and Viennese, but those can be grouped as sub categories of the others if you like, too.

@LouisF Has it right though. Double Bass is a bastardized instrument, it technically does not descend (cleanly at least) from the same family of instruments as Violins which helps to explain our different techniques such as the bow hold and the tuning and whatnot. I used to have a link to an outstanding visual history, I’ll post it if I can find it.

 

[BassFalcon]

Here you go. You can see the messy history. 6 strings. Gut frets. 3 strings, 4 strings. 5 strings. Viol de Gamba, Violone. It’s a sloppy mess compared to the violin family.

toward the end there is a good photo of Dragonetti and his Bow which will explain very clearly the difference in grips. Bows of that style have a convex curve and are held underhand. The hair is stiffest in the middle. Those evolved into German grip bows. Modern bows have a concave curve and the hair is stiffest at the ends and softest at the middle, which allows for the modern bouncing techniques etc.

Double Bass History timeline.

 

[LouisF]

You beat me:
History of the Double Bass - earlybass.com

The Complex History of Double Bass - Monika Kwiatkowska

In the 19th century, ensembles like the Paris Opera and the NY Phil would have multiple bass sections positioned throughout the orchestra. Supposedly the NY Phil had 30 basses at one time (see attached)

 

[Ludwig]

Cellos are related similar like double bass to the gamba. There had been two bow types, too, but some very influencial players pushed the french grip to become totally dominant with cello.
With double bass, some influencial players always kept the german (=Gamba) bow hold alive. Seems the thick, high tension bass strings are put into motion easier with the german hold. And the finger kramps with holding the heavy french bass bow at first or when not done correctly probably will always lead novice players to german bow hold.

 

[james condino]

I always like to look at it from a seated vs. standing comparison. When I'm sitting and leaning back a bit, I seem to be able to dance and finesse a French bow all evening with zero issues.

When I'm standing for the entire night, my bowing hand tends to get worn out much quicker and I like driving with my shoulder and a German bow much better.

The irony is that I started out on a German, a different teacher later convinced me that "real bass players only use French", and then another different teacher sent me back to German....confusing enough?

 

[Malten]

You beat me:
History of the Double Bass - earlybass.com

The Complex History of Double Bass - Monika Kwiatkowska

In the 19th century, ensembles like the Paris Opera and the NY Phil would have multiple bass sections positioned throughout the orchestra. Supposedly the NY Phil had 30 basses at one time (see attached)

And a big audience too!

Interesting, I had never heard of that before. Was is simply so they were heard easily? On the other end of the spectrum, I have read that Dragonetti was sometimes the only bass player in an orchestra.

 

[BassFalcon]

And a big audience too!

Interesting, I had never heard of that before. Was is simply so they were heard easily? On the other end of the spectrum, I have read that Dragonetti was sometimes the only bass player in an orchestra.

it is interesting. The only answer I could imagine was that the output of those basses was so low due to 3 gut strings. Maybe? But Dragonetti and Bottesini were out front playing concertos and stuff so, maybe that’s very wrong. I’m sure the answer is out there in the contemporary literature or a letter between conductors or something. The only thing I know for sure is that no conversation about the origin of the modern bass section is complete without mention of Berlioz and the Octobass, lol.

 

[james condino]

.....the output of those basses was so low due to 3 gut strings......

What????? Have you ever played gut strings???????????????????

 

[BassFalcon]

What????? Have you ever played gut strings???????????????????

Just speculating. Given the bracing techniques of that time, some of them converted from 4, 5, or 6 down to 3. The level of gut string craftsmanship, quality of raw materials and quality control. The bows, The average skill of the average player in that era. I don’t know. Just trying to think of why the sections were that big. That was one idea. Probably not a good one, but I tossed it out because even though it may not be right, it can move the conversation along and maybe we get to a better answer. If they were as thunderous as modern guts on a modern bass they wouldn’t have used so many. I’m just an armchair historian, your opinion is much better than mine given your vast experience with building and repair.

 

[james condino]

My main perspective is as a player who likes guts on the top end. Modern guts & modern basses are a pretty strong combination. True, not much happens on old basses with low overstand and a giant low tension gut E; even more so with an extension. Maybe that was it- not much volume but with that many players you get a low rumble like a bee hive.

30 bass players in a section makes me think of every jam I go to where there seem to be 30 guitar players all at once but they get bent out of shape if two bass players show up for the evening.