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will this combo work?

beatmachine pro

Inactive
Jun 13, 2021
330
312
hartkey 4.5 xl ...4x10 speaker
SWR Big Ben Bass Subwoofer 18" speaker

i have a markbass little mark bass amp
i need to see if i can run both cabs in parrellel
is it possible to use a crossover to controll the bass
the hartkey is using a vent to create low tones
and the big ben has two ports
i might just put them together and have an overload of uncontrollable bass


this combo could be insanely loud and pumping 32 hz pretty hard

the hartkey is 275 watts at 8 ohms
the big ben is 400 watts at 8 ohms
the amp is 300W RMS @ 8 ohm with 2 outs

im not sure that works out or not

i tend to play a 5 string with the mids dailed out


 
I'll take a guess and assume your little mark is 500 watts @ 4Ω, in which case, yes this combo will work. Poking around google shows the big ben sensitivity (spl) rating as 100db measured with 2 watts @ one meter, but that's from an old American Musical Supply page so who knows how accurate it might be. The Hartke cab shows a sensitivity rating of 99db measured with 1 watt @ one meter, which is a more common method. That's a real problem with this older stuff, finding Accurate information.

250 watts into each cab should work fine, and the big ben tops out at 3khz or so, so they'd probably play nice together, but if it was me, hauling around 170 pounds of cabs would get old fast.
 
yea, thats going to be a problem im not sure the size of the big ben

im just obssesed with low end,
this older stuff is dirt cheap now

realistically ill probably just use one cab at a time

the thing about a crossover is the big ben is recomended a LP at 1khz
the hartkey is useing (refraction??) to create the low tones ie 30hz
so it would be recommended to HP at 80hz

the problem being two cabs with different manufactured resonances due to porting
 
If it were me I would try the 4.5XL first all by itself with your Markbass head. I owned one for many years and it has a seriously full bottom end that doesn't get muddy in a mix. Aside from its weight, which was in the 100 pound range IIRC, it was a fine sounding cab especially when you wanted lots of hard hitting bass.

My sense is that although the SWR BB cab is a great 18" driver cab, you might be happy with what the 4.5 XL can do and save yourself about 73 extra pounds and a big box to cart around. It's also a bit of an unknown (for me) as to how well those two cabs will play together.
 
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what would al do:thumbsup: is going to be my new motto
you gave me so me great advice before ;)

the hartkey works pretty much as advertized
i cant turn it up loud in my room
and the room is too small to let the low end resolve
im going to be playing a warwick $$ through it

i ve also got a ibanez SG i have seriously frankeinstiened to make it all low end
the markbass amp doesnt play well with that
it seems to put out all its power at 300hz
i cut all the low mids to get the boom boom tone out of it

so the big ben could help with that maybe
if I can get lower than the harkey for 300 bucks its hard to pass up
if its size isnt too big its just like lugging 2 rocks up a hill
its 3 foot by 3 foot?

lol what would al do?
 
I'm not sure the Mark Bass amp has a crossover. That would mean a crossover and second amp would be necessary to bi-amp.

The 410 is a full range cab, so as stated should be good alone and not really need an added sub for most players.

Cutting mids and heavily boosting lows puts your cab at risk and sucks the power from the amp making it seem underpowered.

What is the end goal you are trying to get, OP? This prospective rig sounds like a muddy, back-breaking mess to me. Trying to reproduce almost anything below like 60 Hz (loudly) with most (full range) cabs just turns the whole mix to undefined slush, damages the vast majority of drivers, and creates volume wars within the band.

YMMV but I think there could very likely be a better way to get the tones/volume you seek.
 
its pretty typical low bass sound just some of the gear is wrong
its pretty well flatwound strings high enough action and foam under the strings
the bartoteli pickups on the ibanez are pretty mid range themselves so that doesnt help
im cutting 300 hz by at least 12 db im not boosting the lows much
of course overloading the subs can be a problem
which is what i really think the problem could be combining these 2 cabs

i have a different amp i dont have the problem with the mids with
 
Ok.

I'm inexperienced with MarkBass, so bear with me. Have you tried experiments with the factory contours and filters in conjunction with eq?

When you gig, do you carry the house or is there a FOH with a sub?



What is the other amp?

IIRC that 410 was on the budget side, maybe it just isn't your flavor?

Are you familiar with Fletcher-Munson concepts? Loosely applies here, but basically it's why the "loudness" button on the stereo sounds good at low volume but too rumbly at high volume.

How is your cut in the mix? Are you trying to replicate a bedroom tone at high volume? Often what sounds great isolated from the mix is actually bad IN the mix.
 
If you are only trying to produce deep and sub lows, most bass amps and standard cabs will likely disappoint. On your Markbass head you might want to try using the VPF (essentially a mid scoop which I think is centered around 380 Hz) to dial down the mids. I'd leave the EQ knobs all at noon to start. If that brings in too much upper end emphasis then apply the VLE (essentially a low pass filter). After getting the right balance in terms of voice shaping there I would fine tune it with EQ.

With all the things you're doing to focus on extreme low end I think you may actually be working against the head and its ability to give you its best shot at depth and volume. Once again, a bass head and standard cab will generally not perform like a subwoofer, at least not for long and without consequences.

One last thought is that unless you just want almost monotone sub bass, most of a bass guitar's voice comes from the first few harmonics, at least IME. Most bass cabs are at least a few dB or more down at the lowest bass fundamental frequencies (i.e. the 30-40 Hz range). This is also where trying to push too hard will get you into mechanical failure of the driver(s).

On last thought is that if you are planning to focus so much of the head's power and voicing focus on the deeper lows, you may want to get a HPF. This may seem counterintuitive but it will preserve/buy back headroom allowing your head to give you the most it can and prevent speaker damage.
 
You could make this setup work reasonably well if you just had another amp to run the Big Ben separately. That would give you the flexibility of adjusting each cabinet so that it blends well with the other.

The Big Ben is a good piece of gear. I heard Chris Squire of YES using a couple of them (I saw them a few months before Chris died) and the low end was fantastic.
 
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the markbass eq frequencies are 40 hz, 300, 2k and a 10k shelf
not the most usefull eq settings
the main thing is i cant turn the volume pots past 4oclock in my room
i have a lot of power already

i have a walter woods amp which i can set flat and get the low tones
or at least a flatter response that works very well but its only 100watts

i can certainly tune to A with the hartkey
i think the hartkey speakers are good and will be great with my warwick $$
the issue i guess is getting the right tone with the 5 string ibanez

ive just got this stuff so i have no idea how things will perform live
i would not expect to be playing stadiums anytime soon

the big ben is a good price and i cant help but wonder how good 18" are going to be
the price is certainly right
 
the markbass eq frequencies are 40 hz, 300, 2k and a 10k shelf
not the most usefull eq settings
the main thing is i cant turn the volume pots past 4oclock in my room
i have a lot of power already

i have a walter woods amp which i can set flat and get the low tones
or at least a flatter response that works very well but its only 100watts

i can certainly tune to A with the hartkey
i think the hartkey speakers are good and will be great with my warwick $$
the issue i guess is getting the right tone with the 5 string ibanez

ive just got this stuff so i have no idea how things will perform live
i would not expect to be playing stadiums anytime soon

the big ben is a good price and i cant help but wonder how good 18" are going to be
the price is certainly right
The BB is a cool cab as I recall, but it's been decades since I heard or played one. If the price is right and you could possibly hear the two cabs together before you buy, it's worth a shot...if the price is really good and just want one of those beasts, maybe you go for it and see how it works out.
 
If you are only trying to produce deep and sub lows, most bass amps and standard cabs will likely disappoint...

try using the VPF to dial down the mids...

leave the EQ knobs all at noon to start...

then apply the VLE ...

After getting the right balance in terms of voice shaping...

fine tune it with EQ....

a bass head and standard cab will generally not perform like a subwoofer, at least not for long and without consequences....

most of a bass guitar's voice comes from the first few harmonics...

the 30-40 Hz range ...is...where trying to push too hard will get you into mechanical failure of the driver(s)....

get a HPF...

prevent speaker damage.

This whole post is worth a double read; or three times through.

I want to specifically point out the things quoted.

WWAKD? Looks to me like he'd offer great advice.
 
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yea i do appreciate peoples input im not very technically minded
i appreciate that you cant just have a mass of frequencies between 30 and 80 hz
there has to be some top end or notes are undiferentiated

thats why i thought haveing a 4X10 and 18" combo might work together
high passing the hartkey would be ideal
but im stuck with the little mark II amp
which seems like maybe its not the right amp for the job

it is a g.a.s thing probably
 
I'll take a guess and assume your little mark is 500 watts @ 4Ω, in which case, yes this combo will work. Poking around google shows the big ben sensitivity (spl) rating as 100db measured with 2 watts @ one meter, but that's from an old American Musical Supply page so who knows how accurate it might be. The Hartke cab shows a sensitivity rating of 99db measured with 1 watt @ one meter, which is a more common method. That's a real problem with this older stuff, finding Accurate information.

250 watts into each cab should work fine, and the big ben tops out at 3khz or so, so they'd probably play nice together, but if it was me, hauling around 170 pounds of cabs would get old fast.
The problem with comparing sensitivity between cabs is that most of the companies use a 1KHz tone to measure that sensitivity rating. You know we play a lot more than just a 1KHz tone. At least it's something. About the only company that I know of that takes measurement at a number of different tones and then gives you an "average SPL 1W@1M" is Mesa. Which is why the Mesa cabs can sometimes look on paper that they are not as sensitive as their competitors when in real world situations, they are louder. So always take those sensitivity ratings with a grain of salt.

Another thing that some folks do is list the Max SPL of their cab with the rms watts it takes to get it there. That's also helpful when comparing cabs but you really need to hook your amp up to a cab and play your bass through it to really see just how it sounds and how loud it gets with your gear.

I also would NOT be interested in lugging a second cab around, particularly not a 118, as my [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] is more than enough. I get told to turn down at outdoor Festivals when the master on my 800-watt amp gets up to 10:30 with it. So I set it between 10 o'clock and 10:30.:thumbsup:
 
the markbass eq frequencies are 40 hz, 300, 2k and a 10k shelf
not the most usefull eq settings
the main thing is i cant turn the volume pots past 4oclock in my room
i have a lot of power already

i have a walter woods amp which i can set flat and get the low tones
or at least a flatter response that works very well but its only 100watts

i can certainly tune to A with the hartkey
i think the hartkey speakers are good and will be great with my warwick $$
the issue i guess is getting the right tone with the 5 string ibanez

ive just got this stuff so i have no idea how things will perform live
i would not expect to be playing stadiums anytime soon

the big ben is a good price and i cant help but wonder how good 18" are going to be
the price is certainly right
I beg to differ with your thinking that the MarkBass EQ's set at 40Hz (bass), 300Hz (low-mid), 2KHz (high-mid) and a 10KHz shelf are not helpful. Those are actually pretty musical EQ's though I would really want the treble shelf to start at just above the high-mids and control everything above that.

If you hook up a High Pass Filter and start fiddling with it to get a really clear and tight bass, odds are you will probably end up setting it somewhere between 40Hz to 60Hz where you get a nice tight and low bass sound. Again because of the way human ears hear, you don't have to actually reproduce the foundation note of a Low B (30.8Hz) to recognize that's the note you're playing. You will probably hear the 1st harmonic (61.6Hz) above that foundation note and still you'll recognize it as that Low B. When you start trying to boost bass response down into the 20Hz area (subwoofer range) you get a lot of rumble with little to no clarity. It's very difficult for the human ear to determine between pitches when you get down into that range. It's pretty much mostly rumble with little if any definition to the notes.

Trying to replicate those super low frequencies will also suck most of your power out of your amp because those notes are so hard for a speaker to replicate and they have to move so far to do it. I see the Big Ben 118 says it is -6db at 25Hz. Most cabs would be lucky to have -10db at that frequency. So you are going to get some really low stuff out of it, probably more than you want to. I guess what I'm saying is that you're liable to end up with an indistinct rumbling sound if you try to boost those frequencies. So avoid the temptation to really boost the bass EQ because it will tend to make things boomy and muddy.

Again because of the way our ears work, you really need low-mids to get definition and presence in your sound, especially when you're playing in a group. Each of the instruments in a group has their own niche of frequencies. The bass drum owns the low bass frequencies and you're not going to beat him down there. The bass has the Low-Mids all to themselves (unless you have some rude guitarist who thinks he wants to occupy that space), Guitars and keys generally focus on the high-mids and highs. So if you want to hear yourself with nice presence in the mix, you need to occupy those low-mid frequencies. Using your low-mid EQ, turn it up to about to about 1:30, put the bass and everything else flat, and see how you sound. If your sound honks at you, you've boosted it too much and you need to slowly keep turning it down until it stops honking. With my Eden and DNA amps, that magic spot resides at about 1:30. Might be more or less with your amp. A slight boost in the low-mids anywhere between 250Hz and 500Hz will give you that definition and presence in the mix, so your low-mids at 300Hz would be just fine.

When playing with that low-mid boost, your sound should sound cleaner and clearer to you as well as to your audience. The smiley face EQ (boosted bass and treble with scooped out mids) usually sounds good at bedroom practice levels where your ears hear the mids the best and the bass and treble are more difficult to pick out. So smiley face EQ works well for those low-level bedroom practices. But play at gig levels with a smiley face EQ and people will see your hands move but won't be able to pick out any notes that you are actually playing. It will all sound like an indistinct rumble to them and isn't that what you're trying to cure in the first place? So try it out. Run everything flat and then dial up a little boost in your low-mids. It may save you lugging around a 118 cab along with your 410 and if it doesn't, all it will cost you is time to try it.
 
When playing with that low-mid boost, your sound should sound cleaner and clearer to you as well as to your audience. The smiley face EQ (boosted bass and treble with scooped out mids) usually sounds good at bedroom practice levels where your ears hear the mids the best and the bass and treble are more difficult to pick out. So smiley face EQ works well for those low-level bedroom practices. But play at gig levels with a smiley face EQ and people will see your hands move but won't be able to pick out any notes that you are actually playing. It will all sound like an indistinct rumble to them and isn't that what you're trying to cure in the first place? So try it out. Run everything flat and then dial up a little boost in your low-mids. It may save you lugging around a 118 cab along with your 410 and if it doesn't, all it will cost you is time to try it.
It took me a long time to recognize that when I was hearing the sound I liked on stage (if using that same cab to carry the venue), it was not sitting well in the mix from an audience seat perspective and often lacked clarity and definition. When my stage tone is a little more mid focused than I might like (compared with my home/bedroom practice tone), it's likely a rich and cleanly articulated tone to the audience.

One last thought I will add is that there is a significant difference between having subs as part of FOH system delivering your bass in a balanced FOH sound way and having a bass rig on stage trying to deliver that same effect. This may seem like a minor point, but IME it is an important one.
 
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there is a significant difference between having subs as part of FOH system delivering your bass in balanced FOH sound way and having a bass rig on stage trying to deliver that same effect.

its true if you have a cab on stage its going to be out of phase with the FOH
but itll probably make the stage vibrate too

there dont seem to be any people who think putting the XL 4.5 and a big ben together
is a good idea
 
its true if you have a cab on stage its going to be out of phase with the FOH
but itll probably make the stage vibrate too

there dont seem to be any people who think putting the XL 4.5 and a big ben together
is a good idea
It's not a given that the stage cab(s) and FOH will be out of phase, but depending on many factors their sound propagation could interfere negatively at one or multiple frequencies.

I think the general consensus on the proposed cab combination is more that the outcome will be more of gamble than a certainty. Experimenting can be fun assuming you can live with any outcome and cost is not an issue.
 
I ran a 4.5XL for many years with a FX-1 pre into a 200 watt EV Dynacord. It was all the volume I ever needed and the bottom end was full and clear. For a time I bi-amped it with a QSC power amp and a 1x15 XL on the bottom. Then one day I decided to use the 4.5XL by itself and found there wasn't enough difference to bother with all the extra lifting and wiring.
 
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