The Name of the Game is tell every band around here that dont play there , they will then change their tune , happened 3 yrs ago around here , they stopped using this contract.
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Would you sign this contract ??
- Thread starter mike buzzetti
- Start date
Well, I say one thing with my lawyer hat on, but if it was my band? I would try to get the rights thing ironed out (as noted above, the venue might have PRO rights in place, in which case, it's a non-issue), and then I would sign the agreement as a representative of my band, which in turn would be a LLC or corporation. In reality, we all agree to terms more egregious than this daily (see: every terms of service or EULA you've ever agreed to). In reality, the risk is quite low, as noted above, but the risk is real and there are some smart low-impact ways to mitigate it without editing the contract to the point they get their lawyer involved.....or being offered any money.... even the pittance of $450.
So, play for free and avoid the hassles of BMI, but STILL have to put up with the liability BS and the rest of the contract. Or play for money and have to deal with that wheelbarrow full of manure.
The name of the game is "You Can't Win".
The lowest impact way to deal with this is to laugh in their face and hand the contract right back to them.
They clearly are not experienced talent buyers. They'll either learn or go out of business.
I'm assuming this is for a solo, duo, or trio. $450 could absolutely be worth it, especially if the food is good and the drive isn't too far.
But I would never sign this. I'd assume that any venue that tried to put all liability on me is out to screw me any way they can.
But I would never sign this. I'd assume that any venue that tried to put all liability on me is out to screw me any way they can.
Nope. Have you looked around your local music scene lately? Musicians, particularly older musicians, are so freaking desperate to play they'll play for free (or close to it) and agree to whatever terms the venue puts in front of them. It's hard to negotiate a good rate at any local joints because grandpas in sandals and ballcaps will play for next to nothing (and do it horribly). If OP turns down the gig, there will be plenty of acts that will play it.
(Sorry. I'm 50 so I'm not picking on anyone. And I'm mainly venting due to the retirees kind of sucking all the life out of my local scene.)
Of the shrinking number of venues that actually have live bands (not just a guy playing acoustic along with tracks), it seems they're working hard to choke live music out altogether via insulting low, or no pay, or garbage like this.
I've been playing live music since the late 70's and I've seen the music industry do nothing but get continuously worse every year. In the 80's, I was in a cover band of 5 and we would have 5+ night gigs at a single venue where we would pull in about $450 per night, free food and drinks were common. Today, it's almost impossible to find a venue that will actually have a live band, and if they do, they want to pay you peanuts or, go back to the play for the door. It's very sad to see the industry dry up and die like this.
I've been playing live music since the late 70's and I've seen the music industry do nothing but get continuously worse every year. In the 80's, I was in a cover band of 5 and we would have 5+ night gigs at a single venue where we would pull in about $450 per night, free food and drinks were common. Today, it's almost impossible to find a venue that will actually have a live band, and if they do, they want to pay you peanuts or, go back to the play for the door. It's very sad to see the industry dry up and die like this.
Play for free? Why bother, when you can sign this contract and get sued into oblivion? Gives all new meaning to the phrase, "pay to play."
If the Dad bands are putting the real bands out of business, the real bands must be pretty sad.
It kinda depends on which gig, doesn't it?
What I mean is, not doing a gig whose terms and conditions are substandard is an easy call for me. To each his own. It ain't about making a point, it's about self respect.
There's a "middle ground". There are pro bands. They're doing fine. They do mostly private/corporate gigs and play for a living. There are horrible grandpa bands. They'll play for free or close to it and phone in everything they do. Then there are bands like mine and a few others around here. We're part-time. But we're all experienced players, most of whom have played for a living at some point. We own great PA/instruments/amps. We play the music correctly. We dress the part. But being that we're part-time, we get lumped in with the grandpa bands. There aren't many venues in the area booking $1000-$1500 bands. There are corporate gigs for $4000+ (often much more) and "hunnerd bucks a man" gigs. In other words, 4 or 5 hunnerd bucks. As long as there are bands that will play for a few hundred, venues aren't going to shell out a grand or more. So we decided we'll only play a couple times a month at places where we know the owners and have long-term relationships with them...thus greater pay. None of us need the money. It's the principle of the thing. Four a few hundred bucks I would rather jam at my house and grill some mahi and swim in the pool.
Anyway, we're getting off topic.
Back to the legal stuff.
This is an interesting topic because it is really pulling some of our hypocrisy forward.
Musicians want to be paid and treated as a professionals, BUT musicians don't want to use standard business contract negotiation tactics because...
Either you are a professional, or you are a hobbyist. The decision is each of ours which we choose.
I work for a company that just slipped of the Fortune 500 list. Our lawyers drew up a 24 page contract template for entertainment to sign. I went back and got the template down to 5 pages. I got to tell you, it's very similar to the one that started this thread. Whether we are signing you to play for free, $450 or $80,000 - you will start with the same template contract.
Oh, and this is why bands should have a stage plot and tech/hospitality rider prepared at all times. Once again, like the contract, it's a starting point for negotiations. The venue will ask you to give in a bit on your riders, and you can ask them to give in a bit on their contracts.
Musicians want to be paid and treated as a professionals, BUT musicians don't want to use standard business contract negotiation tactics because...
Either you are a professional, or you are a hobbyist. The decision is each of ours which we choose.
I work for a company that just slipped of the Fortune 500 list. Our lawyers drew up a 24 page contract template for entertainment to sign. I went back and got the template down to 5 pages. I got to tell you, it's very similar to the one that started this thread. Whether we are signing you to play for free, $450 or $80,000 - you will start with the same template contract.
Oh, and this is why bands should have a stage plot and tech/hospitality rider prepared at all times. Once again, like the contract, it's a starting point for negotiations. The venue will ask you to give in a bit on your riders, and you can ask them to give in a bit on their contracts.
It's a proposed contract, not a test of character. If you don't like it, you negotiate it; you don't laugh at them and throw it back in their face. If you want to say it's all about "self respect," whatever, fine, but to me it's all about acting like a pro if you want to get paid. Read the agreement, propose some edits if necessary, and see if they will agree. If they won't, don't sign it.
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Yup
Invalid Link Removed
You see something in the contract you question and if both parties agree to change it or drop it. Then you amend the wording or strike it out and both parties initial it and move to the next thing...
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This is the key. When bands stop allowing themselves to be pushed around, they'll stop pushing us around. If you have good shows to play and you don't need to be out there every day, nothing to worry about if you have to show them the door.
Most bands are working on a shoestring budget and can't really afford to hire lawyers to make amendments to a contract like this. I get what you're saying, but perhaps if they were offering reasonable terms to begin with we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
The issue isn't the concept or acceptance of contracts at all... it's the nature of the demands in the contract and whether they are in line with industry standards. When 9 out of 10 venues don't ask you to accept full liability for things like securing performance rights, insurance, etc., but one like this winery does... then that's something that is a red flag.
Personally, I have a boilerplate contract that *I* can (and will) provide even for a run of the mill bar gig because I've had too many instances where it's a 'your word against mine' thing at the end of the night, or when a manager on duty thinks they owe us one thing when the person who booked us guaranteed another.... or when the gig is outside and you have to ensure that they'll provide a cover for you in the event of bad weather - or just baking hot sun. It's good to have on hand in addition to a stage plot, rider, etc. Not once have I had a booking rep ask to over-compromise on any aspects of my contract because it's cut-and-dry, and secures basic needs for us as a band, and if there's an issue at the end of the show when getting paid, or dealing with other issues - I can pull out the contract and say 'here ya go!'
Personally, I have a boilerplate contract that *I* can (and will) provide even for a run of the mill bar gig because I've had too many instances where it's a 'your word against mine' thing at the end of the night, or when a manager on duty thinks they owe us one thing when the person who booked us guaranteed another.... or when the gig is outside and you have to ensure that they'll provide a cover for you in the event of bad weather - or just baking hot sun. It's good to have on hand in addition to a stage plot, rider, etc. Not once have I had a booking rep ask to over-compromise on any aspects of my contract because it's cut-and-dry, and secures basic needs for us as a band, and if there's an issue at the end of the show when getting paid, or dealing with other issues - I can pull out the contract and say 'here ya go!'
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Yeah, but it isn't a long contract and it can be understood by the layman. People in this thread (I am assuming mostly non-lawyers) picked up the major issues - the rights clause and liability/indemnity clauses. As I noted above, it would take a few strokes of the pen to just make the limitation of liability mutual and call it a day.
