Your feeling towards bands. The covers and orignals discussion.

[LaklandBass]

You really need to learn what a copyright is and what it protects before you come up with more of these nonsensical examples.

Thank you sir. That is exactly what I was trying to say. I think the main issue here is that we are doing two things.

1. taking legal debates and injecting morals
2. taking moral debates and allowing current law to dictate

I just hope that although none of us will change our camp on this we have all at least learned more of what the other side feels and why.

I dont expect to convert anybody to my way of thinking and that is most certainly not what I am trying to do.
I also dont expect to be converted although I accept that anything is possible.

 

[whocaresnotme]

@Mr. Beggar98 and Mr. Lakland: I think I can feel bad for those composer/artists that are down and out and have never received the cash that was due to them. I will do my best to eliminate those songs from any song list I participate in so I don't make any undue profit. But, you know, I just don't feel that bad about Prince, Sting or Michael Jackson's estate. Does anybody else here care that much?

I guess I can mention that every last well known and successful band/artist/composer started out playing weekend gigs using other peoples music to bring in a little cash. If we add that as a moral failing then the hypocrisy here is 10 feet thick.

Does Sting or Prince really care that much that a bunch of "weekenders" played their song and didn't turn in their song list so they could get paid? I think that is the least worrisome item on their list of priorities.

The reality is that we (the violators) are the majority and you (the originalists) are the minority. Why would the majority cave into your conjectural moral stand when we believe that the punitive stance of ASCAP/BMI (the man) is wrong and amoral? It is a standoff and we (the violators/majority) have the advantage.

 

[eSmith]

Feb's. I'm not even attempting to describe how copyright works. I'm describing how I am seeing Laklands description of Copyright working.

And I agree, it is nonsensical.

-eSmith.

 

[LaklandBass]

Feb's. I'm not even attempting to describe how copyright works. I'm describing how I am seeing Laklands description of Copyright working.

And I agree, it is nonsensical.

-eSmith.

well that makes three of us.
and I wasnt even attempting to describe how copyright works. I was describing how I am seeing eSmiths analogy of copryright working.

 

[LaklandBass]

@Mr. Beggar98 and Mr. Lakland: I think I can feel bad for those composer/artists that are down and out and have never received the cash that was due to them. I will do my best to eliminate those songs from any song list I participate in so I don't make any undue profit. But, you know, I just don't feel that bad about Prince, Sting or Michael Jackson's estate. Does anybody else here care that much?

I guess I can mention that every last well known and successful band/artist/composer started out playing weekend gigs using other peoples music to bring in a little cash. If we add that as a moral failing then the hypocrisy here is 10 feet thick.

Does Sting or Prince really care that much that a bunch of "weekenders" played their song and didn't turn in their song list so they could get paid? I think that is the least worrisome item on their list of priorities.

The reality is that we (the violators) are the majority and you (the originalists) are the minority. Why would the majority cave into your conjectural moral stand when we believe that the punitive stance of ASCAP/BMI (the man) is wrong and amoral? It is a standoff and we (the violators/majority) have the advantage.

A lot of truth in there.
I think that where you and I differ is where the tug of war rests... is the moral stance farther to the side of rich artists deserving or to the side of regular dudes not deserving .
Ill agree as Im sure you will that its a tough call and both sides have made some compelling arguments.

But alas... you are correct, the majority currently has the advantage.

 

[eSmith]

and I wasnt even attempting to describe how copyright works. I was describing how I am seeing eSmiths analogy of copryright working.

Well, it's a good sign to see we are both try at least to understand the point of view of the other. Way better than lobbing stink bombs back and forth!

Lakland, it's been a very fun and entertaining thread for me and it was debate, not argument on my end as I assume is the same for you.

I look forward to disagreeing with you again in the future! Or not!

I've pretty much had my say and then some today so I'm going to lay back for a bit and see what the others contribute.

-eSmith.

 

[LaklandBass]

Well, it's a good sign to see we are both try at least to understand the point of view of the other. Way better than lobbing stink bombs back and forth!

Lakland, it's been a very fun and entertaining thread for me and it was debate, not argument on my end as I assume is the same for you.

I look forward to disagreeing with you again in the future! Or not!

I've pretty much had my say and then some today so I'm going to lay back for a bit and see what the others contribute.

-eSmith.

Absolutely sir... I think im going to do the same since the new gran turismo game is calling to me again.

It absolutely was a debate for me as well and not an argument. Either way I of course wish everyone on this forum the best of luck with their playing no matter how, when, where, what, or why they play.

Have a good evening sir, im sure we'll chat on here again soon

 

[whocaresnotme]

A lot of truth in there.
I think that where you and I differ is where the tug of war rests... is the moral stance farther to the side of rich artists deserving or to the side of regular dudes not deserving .
Ill agree as Im sure you will that its a tough call and both sides have made some compelling arguments.

But alas... you are correct, the majority currently has the advantage.

Absolutely, sir! And I agree it is a tough call. I have enormous respect for the both of you for standing up for your beliefs and you have acquitted yourselves well. That is what Americans do. In the end we can agree to disagree and still carry on with our causes. So be it.

 

[LaklandBass]

Absolutely, sir! And I agree it is a tough call. I have enormous respect for the both of you for standing up for your beliefs and you have acquitted yourselves well. That is what Americans do. In the end we can agree to disagree and still carry on with our causes. So be it.

Indeed!

Much respect to you as well sir.

 

[eSmith]

But....

I'm Canadian.....



-eSmith.

 

[bigfatbass]

Why would anyone want to do originals?

People who don't understand that an artist needs to create, will never be artists. Not saying they even care to be, just saying they don't have the gene required if they did. And not everyone has the song writing gene, either. There is no judgement here, only reality. Some people are crushed their whole lives pretending to themselves they have one, or both, of these genes.

Even a weekend rocker can enjoy the reward of a well received original tune. To say "why would ANYONE play originals" implies a serious lack of soul for music from where I sit. I treasure the rush of hundreds of people singing my words back at us during a show, and I can't wait to make it happen again tonight.

Good music is anything that tickles your ear, but to me "real" music is about creativity, an irresistible lust to make that joyful noise, and soul. If you don't buy it as believable, then why would anyone else?

Plenty of awesome cover bands out there, The Nerds, Dynamo-Hum, CXTEK Dinosaurs, but ALL of them put their own juice into every song. No pat "exactly like the record" crap. That is why their bands are probably better than yours.

 

[peledog]

Excellent post bigfatbass.

You can get enjoyment or feed your creative impulses by writing and playing your own music.

You can enjoyment and put your own 'spin' on hit songs.

It's still music. There are many aspects to it of course. Why do people do covers anyway? Most likely because they like the song - or would like to reinterpret the song.

Foo Fighters do a great cover of an Arcade Fire song - you think Arcade Fire's publicist is furious?

As far as I can recall from my ASCAP member book - the only $$ I'll see is if the CD I recorded is played on a commercial radio station, a public venue or on television. In order to play a mix of songs over the PA at a club, one would need a license for the original works to be played.

A cover band in a bar? You think Commitments submitted their song list???

The whole copyright argument here is sort of moot. I mean, for one - people know it's not YOUR song and sometimes you announce here's a tune by "artist" - you're not claiming to have written it. You're performing it, but it's not the exact replica of the original recording.

Cover bands get paid for their work. And a lot of them do a damn good job too. But seriously, you're going to think about charging a licensing fee to a band that makes $300 for a club gig? Seriously? Morals and laws. Two different animals.

Seems like a bit of the 'original music only' insecurities are creeping into this thread. I've been there, done that. And it's great. I take pride in my originals, most of them are crap, but I wrote them, and there's a certain artistic satisfaction gained.

I play because I enjoy music. Doesn't matter whether it's mine or someone else's songs - but really, what a silly thread.

 

[peledog]

I disagree. The general tone I get is that everybody who plays covers is stealing food out of the mouths of the true artists' children. You obviously don't see it that way - you've said as much a couple of times - but that's how it comes across to me. Those who play covers are not only inferior musically to original artists, but are actually evil for not going way out of their way to ensure that those whose art they're improperly appropriating are compensated in detail.

Up to now I haven't disclosed which "camp" I belong to. For what it's worth, I've done both in the past & I'm between gigs right now, so I'd like to think that I'm as neutral as one can get without not being a musician at all. What I really don't like about this whole debate, is musicians hammering on each other for whatever reason. I think we have way too much in common for that, and should all be working together to make things better for all of us. There's way to much "stratification" in music beyond just the originals/covers issue (genres, sub-genres, etc.). If I ever had an original song that anybody liked well enough to want to cover it, I'd be flattered and encourage them on instead of wanting to extract a pound of flesh for myself. If every cover band in the country wanted to play one of my songs, I'd be happy & proud, & I'd try to go to as many bars as possible to watch as many as I could, cheer them on, & enjoy what they've managed to make out of what I started. Any little royalty check would be icing on the cake.

Another excellent post.

 

[beggar98]

In contractual negotiation no one does anything after the fact except through law suit. What you said makes no sense,sir.

I never said you could negotiate your own deal "after the fact". You would need to do so before you used the material.

Lots of entities negotiate bulk deals with PROs, mostly television production studios. They purchase the rights to many songs, called a library, and can use those songs up to a certain amount without paying individual royalties. MTV has these deals with both ASCAP and BMI.

If you don't like the terms of the standard deal, you can negotiate your own. Though I doubt you have MTV's buying power...

 

[greenboy]

If playing covers bugs someone, I'm all for it. I'm all for seriously changing the covers when a band feels like it, and I'm all for souping up the bass parts when it's working.

When I've played in originals bands I was all for that too. I liked writing and arranging, and I hoped that I was doing it at a higher level than some of the originals bands around that seemed to need to play in covers bands for awhile to get a handle on decent songwriting skills, and musical basics for that matter.

I love hearing people whine about this stuff. It makes me forget that as someone who loves to play, that I'm competing against karoake, a subset of DJs, strippers, trashy movies and movie stars, DVD releases, computer games, big sports TVs, and a host of other ways to spend the entertainment dollar.

Viva Las Vegas! ; }

 

[beggar98]

My main issue with this whole thing is the notion that being in a cover band is equal to being in an original band. It just isn't. No matter how you look at it, original bands go through an extra step of creating something from nothing. I only brought up the whole royalties thing as a way to see if some of the cover band people stopped and thought about the fact that there are other people out there whose work has made their cover band possible.

I know a band here in L.A. who got signed to a small independent label and released a record. One of their songs was used on an episode of "The Hills" and the money from that license covered the bands recording costs. That kind of income can be absolutely HUGE for a young artist starting out.

I know, no one wants to make Sting or Prince any richer. The idea that these millionaires can sit home and keep making money while some hardworking bar band is out hustling is annoying, but its that bar band's choice which songs they want to play. If you don't want to line the pockets of rich has-beens, don't play their stuff. Hell, cover the struggling young artists you love and submit your set lists, that way the PROs send money to the right people. Vote with your venue's wallet, so to speak.

Someone raised the question as to whether or not ASCAP and BMI want you to submit your set lists. The answer is no, they definitely do not. But who do we care about here, the PRO or the artists they represent? Make life difficult for the PROs, make them actually account for what is being played instead of just assuming that since Lady GaGa is getting the most radio play she also deserves the biggest cut of the bar royalties.

 

[greenboy]

Some of the "originals" bands I've heard are every bit as unoriginal as a covers band. They just try to disguise the fact that they don't have any of their own ideas, whether it's sounds/tones, chord progressions, riffs/melodies (or lack of them), clothing and stagecraft, vocal style and lyrics content ... just a sad bunch of imitators, with occasionally some growing past this.

I see nothing holy there.

And so called "serious" music is full of reinterpretation and very little improvisation, and much of it works less hard than some covers bands do to have an original slant. And speaking of improvisation, a lot of interesting jazz performers still play and record some of the "standards". And I have to say, among the best of them, there's more originality than among many of the "originals" bands.


So who's creative? I'd say it's the 10% in each and every category that can take whatever materials and do something cool and magic with it. The other 90% are just what Sturgeon's Law has always required to make 100 - some of whom have illusions about which side of the equation they lie on, and some of whom do not.

I'm just killing time until dinner's ready, I just don't CARE what any internet pundit but myself says! ; }

 

[bassbully]

Why i play original music? To have a creative outlet, to express myself thru music, to challenge people and make them think about what we do. Although its tough I enjoy the marketing, PR, press etc that comes with original acts.

Why I don't play covers. I don't enjoy playing the same old same old night after night. It basically set up , play, go home. There is IMO no artistic expression or passion on my part. I cant sell it and to me the only good thing is better money comes from playing cover music.

 

[bigfatbass]

Didn't realize you were so jaded, greenboy.

Just because many bands fail at being a strong creative entity in no way means no one should aspire to it. That's crazy talk. Creative energy is indeed holy, even when it misses the mark, sometimes even more-so when it whiffs completely.


I encourage everyone posting 10 paragraph treatises to this thread to go expend just as much creative energy trying to write a song. Trust me, the world will be a better place because of it.

 

[DWBass]

I agree. I appreciate everyone's creativity, good or bad! Just because I play in a cover band doesn't mean I'm not a creative entity! I've written well over 100 songs [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and wrote or co-wrote many songs when I owned my own studio when I lived in NY!