Your feeling towards bands. The covers and orignals discussion.

[DWBass]

You don't really believe that, do you?

If it's legal, it is not wrong. Until it is written law, I will continue doing what I've been doing since the mid 70's! Legal and morally wishful thinking are 2 different things. So, yes I do believe that! We can argue this point ad infinitum(sp) but you will always be in the minority on this subject!

 

[eSmith]

What are they supposed to do? Hire 150 extra cops and patrol every road 24/7?

No, do it like we do and install red light cameras to catch the offenders.... 24/7.....

To be honest I do still feel the same way. If the artist(s) or writer(s) signed off that portion of royalties it was their choice to do so and the money is owed to the record company however it was agreed to in the contract.

You see, this is just dumb. passing the rights to ideas to people who didn't have them and can't reproduce the work required to bring it to life yet we somehow all own them money?

Is it just me or is it flat out stupid that a multi million dollar musician from the USA dies and his children will profit for life..... Because of the work the bettles did in the UK generations before?

Ya this is fair, we can't go make money to pay our rent by using our talents to recreate a popular song but these kids who are already rich beyond imagination are somehow entitled to even more for something they had no part in??? And you really feel it isn't all about the rich protecting themselves?

So you think that once someone writes 12 original songs and records them.....its fair game for you to learn the songs and play them for profit?

Sure, thats what covering songs is all about, heck, why wait for 12, I'll take a one hit wonder any day if the one hit is a good one....

-eSmith.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Although I assume you are correct I still dont feel that it rationalizes anything at all.
In my town there is about 3 police units on overnight duty which means that if im on a smaller road I could probably double the speed limit and not get caught. What are they supposed to do? Hire 150 extra cops and patrol every road 24/7? I suppose that's the only way they'd be sure of things but its not going to happen. Either way is certainly doesnt rationalize the act.

What makes you think that ASCAP even wants, or is equipped to deal with, all the thousands of set lists that could potentially be sent to them every week? Even if every single cover band in the US sent every set list, every week, do you really think that ASCAP is going to do anything other than get a bigger dumpster? I have yet to see any evidence that any PRO wants anybody's set list, let alone everybody's.

Compliance isn't the issue, since nobody is failing to comply with anything. There's clearly a very deep resentment on the part of some members of one "class" of musicians for another. To me, that's a bigger issue than whether or not Wilson Pickett's estate gets an accurate accounting of every playing of "Mustang Sally".

 

[eSmith]

A thought just hit me so I decided to have a look around and the found this which brings up a good question.

Why does ANYONE think Ascap or BMI are anything more than complete theives themselves.

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

For all the good intentions I know Lakland and Beggar are TRYING to put forth, I'm now thinking they have made an assumption only that these groups are good or fair in any way.

I'm not seeing real evidence though, just hollow claims about representing the very people they persecute the most.

-eSmith.

 

[LaklandBass]

I disagree. The general tone I get is that everybody who plays covers is stealing food out of the mouths of the true artists' children. You obviously don't see it that way - you've said as much a couple of times - but that's how it comes across to me. Those who play covers are not only inferior musically to original artists, but are actually evil for not going way out of their way to ensure that those whose art they're improperly appropriating are compensated in detail.

Up to now I haven't disclosed which "camp" I belong to. For what it's worth, I've done both in the past & I'm between gigs right now, so I'd like to think that I'm as neutral as one can get without not being a musician at all. What I really don't like about this whole debate, is musicians hammering on each other for whatever reason. I think we have way too much in common for that, and should all be working together to make things better for all of us. There's way to much "stratification" in music beyond just the originals/covers issue (genres, sub-genres, etc.). If I ever had an original song that anybody liked well enough to want to cover it, I'd be flattered and encourage them on instead of wanting to extract a pound of flesh for myself. If every cover band in the country wanted to play one of my songs, I'd be happy & proud, & I'd try to go to as many bars as possible to watch as many as I could, cheer them on, & enjoy what they've managed to make out of what I started. Any little royalty check would be icing on the cake.

I think thats a perfectly reasonable post and agree with a lot of what you've said. I dont see myself as better than cover bands and ive said so in this post a couple of times. I just have my view and others have theirs. And.... since this is a forum for musicians we are discussing and debating that... of course there will be some friction with a topic like this but it really is nice that we have a place to talk to each other.
I fully support your opinion and everyone else on this forum.. i might not agree and because of that it may seem like im being elitist but when you get down to it there is no way to have a debate without disagreement. And that means that there is always going to be some slugging in topics like this.

To be honest ive seen more hurtful words thrown in the direction of original artists here. Calling someting stealing is a far cry from some people posting that original artists are garbage that nobody wants to hear.

 

[LaklandBass]

A thought just hit me so I decided to have a look around and the found this which brings up a good question.

Why does ANYONE think Ascap or BMI are anything more than complete theives themselves.

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

For all the good intentions I know Lakland and Beggar are TRYING to put forth, I'm now thinking they have made an assumption only that these groups are good or fair in any way.

I'm not seeing real evidence though, just hollow claims about representing the very people they persecute the most.

-eSmith.

Of course the labels are shady and have had a long history of screwing artists. That still doesnt make it right. Walmart is an evil monster in the eyes of many but that doesnt make me less of an offender if I take something from them

 

[LaklandBass]

No, do it like we do and install red light cameras to catch the offenders.... 24/7.....

you catch them speeding with a red light camera?

You see, this is just dumb. passing the rights to ideas to people who didn't have them and can't reproduce the work required to bring it to life yet we somehow all own them money?
So if someone is retiring and sells a small business to you its ok for people to take things because it wasnt your idea to begin with? The point is that if the artist sold off the rights its ok because it was THEIRS to sell off.

Is it just me or is it flat out stupid that a multi million dollar musician from the USA dies and his children will profit for life..... Because of the work the bettles did in the UK generations before?
Its not much different than stocks and other things being left for people in a will.

Ya this is fair, we can't go make money to pay our rent by using our talents to recreate a popular song but these kids who are already rich beyond imagination are somehow entitled to even more for something they had no part in??? And you really feel it isn't all about the rich protecting themselves?
For the millionth time in this thread someones net worth has NO part in if they should be stolen from. There is no such thing as a sliding scale of theft based on what % you took from somebody.


Sure, thats what covering songs is all about, heck, why wait for 12, I'll take a one hit wonder any day if the one hit is a good one....

And you are currently legally able to do so as long as the venue has paid its license

-eSmith.

...

 

[eSmith]

That still doesnt make it right.

Make what right? Let's define "IT" shall we. To me, "it" is playing my ideas around popular cover songs and knowing that since I was the one playing, I was the one doing the work and own nobody for this.

Your contention seems to be that we are sinners and therefore should pay into a monopolistic mafia type organisation that was never elected or vorted into existance democraticly that has a history of screwing the very artests you are claiming you want to see treated fairly.

Simply put, The whole idea of paying thugs an extortion fee to play my instrument is criminal. Regardless of what might have inspired me to play a specific song. Once I take the time to learn it, internalize it and make it my own.... it is my own.

Feel free to pay the thugs whatever you like, just don't point any fingers my way for not falling for extortion as easily as you.

-eSmith.

 

[LaklandBass]

Make what right? Let's define "IT" shall we. To me, "it" is playing my ideas around popular cover songs and knowing that since I was the one playing, I was the one doing the work and own nobody for this.

Your contention seems to be that we are sinners and therefore should pay into a monopolistic mafia type organisation that was never elected or vorted into existance democraticly that has a history of screwing the very artests you are claiming you want to see treated fairly.

Simply put, The whole idea of paying thugs an extortion fee to play my instrument is criminal. Regardless of what might have inspired me to play a specific song. Once I take the time to learn it, internalize it and make it my own.... it is my own.

Feel free to pay the thugs whatever you like, just don't point any fingers my way for not falling for extortion as easily as you.

-eSmith.

First off nobody is asking you to pay.
Second. are you seriously calling copyrights extortion?
Third. Learning somebody's song does not make it your own.

 

[eSmith]

you catch them speeding with a red light camera?

Ya, they do. You speed through an intersection and a photo of you going through the intersection and your speed will arrive in the mail with your fine. They also randomly park photo radar vans around the streets in the city and rake in the cash catching people speeding. Ain't technology grand!

So if someone is retiring and sells a small business to you its ok for people to take things because it wasnt your idea to begin with? The point is that if the artist sold off the rights its ok because it was THEIRS to sell off.

The problem here is you are blurring the line between physical property and imaganary ideas. If you sell me a store, I get the property, inventory and customers that go along with it as well as the name that will (hopefully) continue to draw customers.

If you worked and built the business for years, it would result in value assigned to what you accomplished, not what you dreamed to accomplish.

Under your line of thinking, if I bought your store, and someone else opened a similar store down the road, I am entitled to some of that profit because I bought the store from the first guy who decided to open one. After all, it was your idea to open the store and I bought the right to your idea when I bought the store.....

(How foolish is that?)

-eSmith.

 

[eSmith]

You live in a city, there are police. An uninvolved third party shows up and demands "protection money" from me. These people are not involved with the police. it is extortion.

Ascap and BMI do not create music, they feel entitled to collect money from anyone playing music and do not disclose how much if any at all goes back to the musicians. it is controlled by those who profit the most and all policy is decided by those very people and it is all an effort to protect there profits....

They have been sued repeatedly by both the venues they extort from and the very musicians they claim to represent..

How do you NOT see it as extortion? Seriously....

-eSmith.

 

[LaklandBass]

Ya, they do. You speed through an intersection and a photo of you going through the intersection and your speed will arrive in the mail with your fine. They also randomly park photo radar vans around the streets in the city and rake in the cash catching people speeding. Ain't technology grand!



The problem here is you are blurring the line between physical property and imaganary ideas. If you sell me a store, I get the property, inventory and customers that go along with it as well as the name that will (hopefully) continue to draw customers.

If you worked and built the business for years, it would result in value assigned to what you accomplished, not what you dreamed to accomplish.

Under your line of thinking, if I bought your store, and someone else opened a similar store down the road, I am entitled to some of that profit because I bought the store from the first guy who decided to open one. After all, it was your idea to open the store and I bought the right to your idea when I bought the store.....

(How foolish is that?)

-eSmith.

Its very foolish... and my line of thinking was in response to your comment that something that isnt tangible should be allowed to have rights sold or passed on.
Charlaine Harris wrote the SookieStackhouse series of books.... which have been turned into a television show by HBO. The show does not precisely follow the books so by your thinking they would be "making it their own" and "doing all the work"... yet they still have to pay Mrs. Harris because the art that she created is hers. NOT theirs.
I guess they could say that they are "covering" her story and making their own changes.... doesnt matter..... its not their story to tell regardless of how they want to tell it. So they pay her accordingly.

 

[LaklandBass]

You live in a city, there are police. An uninvolved third party shows up and demands "protection money" from me. These people are not involved with the police. it is extortion.

Ascap and BMI do not create music, they feel entitled to collect money from anyone playing music and do not disclose how much if any at all goes back to the musicians. it is controlled by those who profit the most and all policy is decided by those very people and it is all an effort to protect there profits....

They have been sued repeatedly by both the venues they extort from and the very musicians they claim to represent..

How do you NOT see it as extortion? Seriously....

-eSmith.

I dont see it as extortion and your example isnt valid. The thugs you speak of have no agreement with the local police... hence it would be extortion.
ASCAP/BMI are NOT an uninvited third party. They are representing the artists. That would be like going to court and calling someones lawyer a third party.... yea I suppose he is but he was hired by the person.

Please allow me to adjust your analogy.....

You live in a city.... there are police.... you CHOOSE to go to a nightclub in the city... the nightclub has bouncers to pay so they charge you a cover at the door to help comp their expenses. Although the bouncers are a third party they are working with the club and the club is working with them. It is obviously not extortion even though they are technically a third party security company that was outsourced by the club owner. The bouncers dont create the club atmosphere yet they are paid to be there..... because that is their role.

I am obviously a musician and I have done multiple independent albums over the years..... I was not signed to a record label yet I still made the albums... ASCAP/BMI does not own any of my music at all.... if an employee of ascap walked into a club and heard a cover band playing my old songs there is NOTHING that ascap can do about it since i do not have any working relationship with them.

Your post was implying that ASCAP/BMI is an uninvited guest that takes it upon themselves to collect fee's for every piece of music in the world. As if once you write a song they show up at your house and represent it whether you like it or not.... if that were the case I would absolutely agree with you that extortion is lingering.

 

[whocaresnotme]

You may be willing to pay $.05/ performance. What if they decided the new rate is $10? That's their right, they own it. What if they decided you needed to pay $0.05 for every second of their song you use and it was your responsibility to accurately document usage and any discrepancy in your documentation could result in fines? They could do that, too, and basically do when it comes to mechanical sync licenses.

They have come up with a system that is 1) cheap and 2) easy to use, that shouldn't mean they give up what is coming to them. You don't pay anything to use their songs (in most cases whatever crappy dive bar you're playing at does), so the extent of what they ask you to do is to tell them what songs you play. And the don't even really tell you to do that, they simply give you the option to. I don't think its too much to ask.

If they charge $10.00 per song per play then I want $1.00 back to do their work. You charge what the market can bear. At some point nobody would play their songs because it would be too expensive.

If you wish to hold "weekend warrior" musicians to higher moral standard then why not hold ASCAP/BMI (the man) to one? It is obvious they use federal law to legally extort license money from clubs upon the threat of a civil law suit, correct? So where is their level of morality?

 

[eSmith]

Your post was implying that ASCAP/BMI is an uninvited guest that takes it upon themselves to collect fee's for every piece of music in the world. As if once you write a song they show up at your house and represent it whether you like it or not.... if that were the case I would absolutely agree with you that extortion is lingering.

I suppose it is my own mistake to simply assume you read the links I post.....

Read here, look at the effort required to get out of paying BMI. Even though the musician involved was clearly in a position exactly as you describe.....

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/phillips.html

In my previous link, did you not see how they are claiming rights to "Arraingments" of traditional songs? They have copyright claims on over 80 versions of Row, Row, Row your boat?

Is that NOT them claiming rights to songs they have no right to?

I am seriously starting to think you are just ignoring what doesn't fit your worldview.

-eSmith.

 

[whocaresnotme]

And you are free to negotiate your own licensing agreement, but if you want to use the pricing on the shelf you use the terms as well. You can't walk in to Best Buy and purchase a television and later decide you should get the warranty for free- the seller sets the terms.

In contractual negotiation no one does anything after the fact except through law suit. What you said makes no sense,sir.

 

[whocaresnotme]

Well I wish you wouldve put it like that to begin with... really does explain a lot.

Don't make this personal, Lakland. OK?

 

[LaklandBass]

I suppose it is my own mistake to simply assume you read the links I post.....

Read here, look at the effort required to get out of paying BMI. Even though the musician involved was clearly in a position exactly as you describe.....

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/phillips.html

In my previous link, did you not see how they are claiming rights to "Arraingments" of traditional songs? They have copyright claims on over 80 versions of Row, Row, Row your boat?

Is that NOT them claiming rights to songs they have no right to?

I am seriously starting to think you are just ignoring what doesn't fit your worldview.

-eSmith.

I did read. And yes I believe that ASCAP/BMI has been out of line and will probably continue to be. I absolutely dont ignore what doesnt fit my views. I have listened to everything you have said and considered it.

 

[LaklandBass]

Don't make this personal, Lakland. OK?

You are absolutely correct sir. I absolutely was not aiming to make a personal stab for the heck of it. I was being serious with my response.

 

[Febs]

Under your line of thinking, if I bought your store, and someone else opened a similar store down the road, I am entitled to some of that profit because I bought the store from the first guy who decided to open one. After all, it was your idea to open the store and I bought the right to your idea when I bought the store.....

(How foolish is that?)

You really need to learn what a copyright is and what it protects before you come up with more of these nonsensical examples. This is a good place to start: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]