Your feeling towards bands. The covers and orignals discussion.

[Ryan L.]

Ideas exist independat of minds. What might be a new idea to one person may be old hat to another. It is totally an American invention to charge people for ideas they might have if another unrelated person can prove they thought something before.... Ideas are not work, bringing ideas to life is. A band playing a cover IS doing the work, the composer did work once and when people buy his recoded work he should get paid. The rest of the sillyness regarding royalities based on ideas is a commercial gimick for profit generation and they would love to leverage it as "Right .vs Wrong and brainwash people like beggar who believe "That doesn't make it right."

What makes it wrong? Who is to say in the very limited set of notes and scales that two people completely unknown to each other cannot both put notes and chords on paper in the same order? Why does one deserve payment and not the other? Wasn't the same amount of effort done by both.

Ahhh, what a silly dream to sit around and profit for life because you ONCE put in some effort.....

Sorry but intellictual property is an invention by laywers used to secure profit for themselves and there clients. Copyright law allowing rights to exist for 99 years past the life of the author is all about locking people into class structure, the rich stay rich and you keep paying for it. That isn't right. it's outright criminal to extort like that. You show up, play the instruments and keep the crowd dancing, you get paid, nobody sitting home watching TV should get a dime and it is totally brainwashed thinking to believe people should get paid for ideas not accompanied by actions to see those ides through.

Let's reduce to the rediculous for a sec to prove the point. Do you think the first guy to figure out how to rub sticks together is owed money by everyone who ever lit a match? Should people not perfom the himelick manouver on a chocking person unless they are willing to send cash to the guy who figured out it works? You drive to work? Do you send money to the Roman Government? after all, they invented roadbuilding.... not to mention modern plumbing, should you send them cash each time you flush?

It is a trick by those looking for cash to guilt you into thinking you own something for sitting and playing your instrument. They don't own your ideas and once you hear something out in the public domain, any ideas it brings to you are your own.


-eSmith.

Stop that. You're making too much sense.....................

 

[beggar98]

Ideas exist independat of minds. What might be a new idea to one person may be old hat to another. It is totally an American invention to charge people for ideas they might have if another unrelated person can prove they thought something before.... Ideas are not work, bringing ideas to life is. A band playing a cover IS doing the work, the composer did work once and when people buy his recoded work he should get paid. The rest of the sillyness regarding royalities based on ideas is a commercial gimick for profit generation and they would love to leverage it as "Right .vs Wrong and brainwash people like beggar who believe "That doesn't make it right."

What makes it wrong? Who is to say in the very limited set of notes and scales that two people completely unknown to each other cannot both put notes and chords on paper in the same order? Why does one deserve payment and not the other? Wasn't the same amount of effort done by both.

Ahhh, what a silly dream to sit around and profit for life because you ONCE put in some effort.....

Sorry but intellictual property is an invention by laywers used to secure profit for themselves and there clients. Copyright law allowing rights to exist for 99 years past the life of the author is all about locking people into class structure, the rich stay rich and you keep paying for it. That isn't right. it's outright criminal to extort like that. You show up, play the instruments and keep the crowd dancing, you get paid, nobody sitting home watching TV should get a dime and it is totally brainwashed thinking to believe people should get paid for ideas not accompanied by actions to see those ides through.

Let's reduce to the rediculous for a sec to prove the point. Do you think the first guy to figure out how to rub sticks together is owed money by everyone who ever lit a match? Should people not perfom the himelick manouver on a chocking person unless they are willing to send cash to the guy who figured out it works? You drive to work? Do you send money to the Roman Government? after all, they invented roadbuilding.... not to mention modern plumbing, should you send them cash each time you flush?

It is a trick by those looking for cash to guilt you into thinking you own something for sitting and playing your instrument. They don't own your ideas and once you hear something out in the public domain, any ideas it brings to you are your own.

-eSmith.

I'm not even sure where to begin here, so I'll try the beginning...

Ideas do not exist independent of minds. There is no magical ether out of which new creations spring forth, fully formed, waiting for someone to employ them.

A band playing a cover is doing some work, but they couldn't do what they do without the composer first creating the song. If ideas are not work, but bringing them to life is, then anyone should be allowed to sit down and re-type the novels of Stephen King and sell them for profit with nothing due the original author. After all, coming up with the story isn't really work, only bringing it to life is. That you believe this leads me to think you've never written a song in your life.

We're also not talking about cases of disputed origin, or situations where two songs are so similar they appear to be the same. We're talking about cover songs- in some cases performed by tribute bands whose whole career is based on copying someone else. I'd love to hear from some weekend warrior who wants to claim he just came up with "Brown Eyed Girl" that afternoon, and any similarity to the Van Morrison hit is purely coincidental.

The idea of intellectual property is not American. It dates to 16th century England and is a crucial pillar upon which modern society is built. Protecting those who invent, who create, is the exact opposite of keeping the poor down while making the rich richer. Imagine if you had an idea that would revolutionize computers. You're a tiny, one man company building machines by hand in your apartment and selling them one at a time for $1,000. Dell buys one of your computers, figures out how it works, and with their manufacturing abilities and significant financing are able to sell the same device for $750. Thanks for the idea, but the real work is building the machine. You're out of business. The only way small start-up companies can compete with multi-national conglomerates is by having better ideas. Intellectual property protects those ideas.

It's true that no one owns your ideas. But you don't own anyone else's, either. When you sit down and play your instrument you have two choices- play something you created (or are creating), or play someone else' creation. The choice is yours, but if you choose the latter you are doing less work, building off of someone else' work. For that they should be compensated, just like you should be compensated for the work you do.

 

[DWBass]

It's true that no one owns your ideas. But you don't own anyone else's either. When you sit down and play your instrument you have two choices- play something you created (or are creating), or play someone else' creation. The choice is yours, but if you choose the latter you are doing less work, building off of someone else' work. For that they should be compensated, just like you should be compensated for the work you do.

Here's the kicker.........they already are! For the record, there is quite a lot of cash flow for the 'artists' in the form of record sales, sheet music sales, performance licenses (venues, radio play, elevator music, corporate on hold music, t-shirts, posters, etc.) What more do you want? How about focusing on the record companies who cheat artists daily! Talk about giving artists their due! You're worrying about cover bands? Please! Sounds more like a personal vendetta to me! Did y'all get kicked out of a cover band and have vowed revenge ever since? I mean really! Get over it!

 

[Febs]

Ideas exist independat of minds. What might be a new idea to one person may be old hat to another. It is totally an American invention to charge people for ideas they might have if another unrelated person can prove they thought something before.... Ideas are not work, bringing ideas to life is.

And as it turns out, ideas are not subject to copyright protection. The expression of ideas fixed in tangible form is subject to copyright protection.

Who is to say in the very limited set of notes and scales that two people completely unknown to each other cannot both put notes and chords on paper in the same order?

If two people independently come up with the same melody, then there is no copyright infringement.

Let's reduce to the rediculous for a sec to prove the point. Do you think the first guy to figure out how to rub sticks together is owed money by everyone who ever lit a match? Should people not perfom the himelick manouver on a chocking person unless they are willing to send cash to the guy who figured out it works? You drive to work? Do you send money to the Roman Government? after all, they invented roadbuilding.... not to mention modern plumbing, should you send them cash each time you flush?

None of these examples would be subject to copyright protection. Some of them would arguably be inventions subject to patent protect, but patents have a relatively short duration and then the invention enters the public domain.

 

[beggar98]

Here's the kicker.........they already are! For the record, there is quite a lot of cash flow for the 'artists' in the form of record sales, sheet music sales, performance licenses (venues, radio play, elevator music, corporate on hold music, t-shirts, posters, etc.) What more do you want? How about focusing on the record companies who cheat artists daily! Talk about giving artists their due! You're worrying about cover bands? Please! Sounds more like a personal vendetta to me! Did y'all get kicked out of a cover band and have vowed revenge ever since? I mean really! Get over it!

I'm not worried about it at all. I do play almost entirely original music, but i doubt anyone's covering my songs. If the people who use other people's music to make money are too lazy and/or cheap to give credit where credit is due, that's on them. I just think it's pathetic when people try to stand by an argument that is blatantly wrong just because it benefits them.

 

[DWBass]

I'm not worried about it at all. I do play almost entirely original music, but i doubt anyone's covering my songs. If the people who use other people's music to make money are too lazy and/or cheap to give credit where credit is due, that's on them. I just think it's pathetic when people try to stand by an argument that is blatantly wrong just because it benefits them.

Almost entirely? What does that mean? Are you covering a tune? Did you pay for the right to do so?

Argument pathetic? Until the laws change, it's not wrong!

ASCAP and the courts have already settled on a system. They're fine with it! The argument is that YOU feel it is blatantly wrong! On that note, I'll leave you to your quest for the perfect world!

 

[beggar98]

Almost entirely? What does that mean? Are you covering a tune? Did you pay for the right to do so?

Argument pathetic? Until the laws change, it's not wrong!

ASCAP and the courts have already settled on a system. They're fine with it! The argument is that YOU feel it is blatantly wrong! On that note, I'll leave you to your quest for the perfect world!

No, I don't feel that the system is wrong. It's a perfectly fine system. In most cases, fees are paid by the bar/club/promoter. All I want performers to do is submit their set lists so the right artists get paid. That's all. Is that really too much to ask?

We do play one cover as of right now, but it's a public domain song, so no one earns royalties on it. But I do submit my set lists, through my management company, mostly so there's a record of our own songs being performed.

 

[peledog]

If you feel like writing and performing original tunes, do it.

If you feel like covering hit songs and performing, do it.

I don't understand the animosity.

I've done my fair share of original music over the years, recorded CDs - gigged - and it was great.

Now I'm playing in a cover band, because I ENJOY playing. I don't have to feed the ego of creativity - I just simply enjoy playing. And it's so much better to see a live band do songs that you know and can dance to. Unless, of course, you're a fan of the jukebox.

But clubs and casinos hire cover bands to pack the people in. There are clubs for original bands - but the crowds can be different. I go to both kinds, and enjoy myself as a spectator - and as a bassist when I'm performing.

As for original music, the venues where you can showcase your originals can be a tough call. If you don't get people in - they won't book you again.

I've played clubs in Philly, Boston, Hollywood, Dallas, Oklahoma City and San Diego - and it's pretty much the same thing - bring people in, or you don't play again.

Anyway, seems like this thread has journeyed into areas I'd rather not tackle.

I'd be interested, however, in seeing how the demographics are in relation to original vs cover band - age and gender.

 

[DWBass]

No, I don't feel that the system is wrong. It's a perfectly fine system. In most cases, fees are paid by the bar/club/promoter. All I want performers to do is submit their set lists so the right artists get paid. That's all. Is that really too much to ask?

We do play one cover as of right now, but it's a public domain song, so no one earns royalties on it. But I do submit my set lists, through my management company, mostly so there's a record of our own songs being performed.

I guess I can't stay away. To be clear, you're performing a song published in 1922 or earlier? http://www.pdinfo.com/ As for setlists, our agent has a list of every song we perform. I have no idea what she does with it beyond showing clients. They have songlists from every band they represent. Again, we work for them. They pay us! We don't play bars or clubs. I can't speak for cover bands who frequent the bar/club scene and most likely self book.

From the ASCAP website:

GENERAL LICENSING ALLOCATION

Fees collected from non-broadcast, non-surveyed licensees (bars, hotels, restaurants and the like) are applied to broadcast feature performances on radio and all performances on television, which serve as a proxy for distribution purposes.

I didn't see anything requiring 'cover bands' to submit set lists.

 

[pklima]

I don't understand the animosity.

Simple. They're jealous of us - we get more gigs, more money, more girls etc.

 

[txbasschik]

I'm not worried about it at all. I do play almost entirely original music, but i doubt anyone's covering my songs. If the people who use other people's music to make money are too lazy and/or cheap to give credit where credit is due, that's on them. I just think it's pathetic when people try to stand by an argument that is blatantly wrong just because it benefits them.

Wow. "Lazy and/or cheap". Nice. Sure won't be inviting you over for supper.

The bar pays for the licensing so that we can play cover tunes. We're not breaking the law. If you think the laws/rules suck, then go try to change them. Good luck with that. Sorry, but I'm not sending a check to Eric Clapton, AC/DC, or Buddy Guy as an individual. ASCAP and BMI are protecting their interests...that's why one joins such organizations. Those people, who wrote those songs, are getting paid. And I'm getting paid...very, very much less than they are because my band's originals are not big ol' hits, and theirs are. I'm ok with that. If you're not, well, that's too bad. Go call a lawyer.

Cherie

 

[Ryan L.]

I'm not worried about it at all. I do play almost entirely original music, but i doubt anyone's covering my songs. If the people who use other people's music to make money are too lazy and/or cheap to give credit where credit is due, that's on them. I just think it's pathetic when people try to stand by an argument that is blatantly wrong just because it benefits them.

I wish you much luck in your great crusade to bring cover bands to justice and make our planet a much better place to live.

 

[LaklandBass]

Ideas exist independat of minds. What might be a new idea to one person may be old hat to another. It is totally an American invention to charge people for ideas they might have if another unrelated person can prove they thought something before.... Ideas are not work, bringing ideas to life is. A band playing a cover IS doing the work, the composer did work once and when people buy his recoded work he should get paid. The rest of the sillyness regarding royalities based on ideas is a commercial gimick for profit generation and they would love to leverage it as "Right .vs Wrong and brainwash people like beggar who believe "That doesn't make it right."

What makes it wrong? Who is to say in the very limited set of notes and scales that two people completely unknown to each other cannot both put notes and chords on paper in the same order? Why does one deserve payment and not the other? Wasn't the same amount of effort done by both.

Ahhh, what a silly dream to sit around and profit for life because you ONCE put in some effort.....

Sorry but intellictual property is an invention by laywers used to secure profit for themselves and there clients. Copyright law allowing rights to exist for 99 years past the life of the author is all about locking people into class structure, the rich stay rich and you keep paying for it. That isn't right. it's outright criminal to extort like that. You show up, play the instruments and keep the crowd dancing, you get paid, nobody sitting home watching TV should get a dime and it is totally brainwashed thinking to believe people should get paid for ideas not accompanied by actions to see those ides through.

Let's reduce to the rediculous for a sec to prove the point. Do you think the first guy to figure out how to rub sticks together is owed money by everyone who ever lit a match? Should people not perfom the himelick manouver on a chocking person unless they are willing to send cash to the guy who figured out it works? You drive to work? Do you send money to the Roman Government? after all, they invented roadbuilding.... not to mention modern plumbing, should you send them cash each time you flush?

It is a trick by those looking for cash to guilt you into thinking you own something for sitting and playing your instrument. They don't own your ideas and once you hear something out in the public domain, any ideas it brings to you are your own.


-eSmith.

So you think that once someone writes 12 original songs and records them.....its fair game for you to learn the songs and play them for profit?

 

[LaklandBass]

Here's the kicker.........they already are! For the record, there is quite a lot of cash flow for the 'artists' in the form of record sales, sheet music sales, performance licenses (venues, radio play, elevator music, corporate on hold music, t-shirts, posters, etc.) What more do you want? How about focusing on the record companies who cheat artists daily! Talk about giving artists their due! You're worrying about cover bands? Please! Sounds more like a personal vendetta to me! Did y'all get kicked out of a cover band and have vowed revenge ever since? I mean really! Get over it!

So you think that the current net worth of the artist dictates if they should be stolen from or not?

Id love to see the look on your face if poor people broke in a took your belongings claiming that you already had enough.

 

[LaklandBass]

If you feel like writing and performing original tunes, do it.

If you feel like covering hit songs and performing, do it.

I don't understand the animosity.

I've done my fair share of original music over the years, recorded CDs - gigged - and it was great.

Now I'm playing in a cover band, because I ENJOY playing. I don't have to feed the ego of creativity - I just simply enjoy playing. And it's so much better to see a live band do songs that you know and can dance to. Unless, of course, you're a fan of the jukebox.

But clubs and casinos hire cover bands to pack the people in. There are clubs for original bands - but the crowds can be different. I go to both kinds, and enjoy myself as a spectator - and as a bassist when I'm performing.

As for original music, the venues where you can showcase your originals can be a tough call. If you don't get people in - they won't book you again.

I've played clubs in Philly, Boston, Hollywood, Dallas, Oklahoma City and San Diego - and it's pretty much the same thing - bring people in, or you don't play again.

Anyway, seems like this thread has journeyed into areas I'd rather not tackle.

I'd be interested, however, in seeing how the demographics are in relation to original vs cover band - age and gender.

See this is why I like almost all of your posts on this forum. You absolutely have the right attitude.

Its not that I have animosity towards cover bands... its that im just shocked by the attitude of some cover band members on this forum. I simply can't grasp that people feel so entitled.
Your attitude is perfectly fine.... enjoy what you do. But people that use the songs of others should at least respect that the current laws are giving them a nice handout.
Like Beggar said... just send in your set list so the right people get paid.... you're musicians... how can you not understand that?
I just dont get the cannibal attitude of taking someone else's hard work. Especially when all of you are musicians.... you know exactly how hard it is to write original music and effectively record, promote and perform it. The attitude that im seeing a lot here is what I would expect from non-musicians.
Just because a current law allows for something doesnt make it right.
There's loopholes in all sorts of laws that allow people to get away with some truly nasty things. It doesnt mean we should celebrate the loopholes.

 

[LaklandBass]

Simple. We're jealous.- we steal our songs, play gigs, take money and hook up with townies. etc.

there.... fixed that for ya

 

[DWBass]

So you think that the current net worth of the artist dictates if they should be stolen from or not?

Id love to see the look on your face if poor people broke in a took your belongings claiming that you already had enough.

You guys just don't get it! There are already laws in place for which we (cover bands) follow! What more do you want? NOBODY IS BREAKING THE LAW! NOBODY IS STEALING FROM ANYONE! If you want the laws changed, form a petition, gather your required 1500 signatures and take it to legislation!

 

[LaklandBass]

Wow. "Lazy and/or cheap". Nice. Sure won't be inviting you over for supper.

The bar pays for the licensing so that we can play cover tunes. We're not breaking the law. If you think the laws/rules suck, then go try to change them. Good luck with that. Sorry, but I'm not sending a check to Eric Clapton, AC/DC, or Buddy Guy as an individual. ASCAP and BMI are protecting their interests...that's why one joins such organizations. Those people, who wrote those songs, are getting paid. And I'm getting paid...very, very much less than they are because my band's originals are not big ol' hits, and theirs are. I'm ok with that. If you're not, well, that's too bad. Go call a lawyer.

Cherie

Nobody said you're breaking a law.... nobody said you should ever send a check to an artist....
Its simply being said that if youre going to use someones songs in your set list you could at least submit the list so the RIGHT people get paid. Thats all.

 

[DWBass]

Just because a current law allows for something doesn't make it right.

Really?

 

[LaklandBass]

You guys just don't get it! There are already laws in place for which we (cover bands) follow! What more do you want? NOBODY IS BREAKING THE LAW! NOBODY IS STEALING FROM ANYONE! If you want the laws changed, form a petition, gather your required 1500 signatures and take it to legislation!

What more do I want? I think it would be nice if you could submit the set list so the right bands get paid. Thats all.