Double Bass your sound/house sound

[jrlynch]

challenge one: you want to hear your instrument, just louder, as you are playing it.

challenge two: you want your audience to hear your "sound".

imho, these are two conflicting priorities ... and unless you're playing big rooms with "real" sound, it's a continuing compromise.

i'd love to hear some thoughts on the subject. what's more important? is there solution that satisfies both needs?

jeff.

 

[bolo]

Some initial thoughts.

1) With a PA, do whatever makes you happy on stage w/ your amp, but send a mic only signal to the house. If the volume is reasonable on stage, and if the sound tech at the board is OK, then I think you can satisfy both requirements. Good stage sound, good sound in the house.

2) With no PA, my experience w/ EA cabs is that they project a "true" sound out into the room for the audience pretty well. And they sound good on stage (IMO), with off-axis coverage that is better than other cabs I've tried (for you and your bandmates).

Which of your two requirements is more important? I want my bandmates and myself to hear my sound and hear it really well. If I have to choose between a righteous sound out in the room and a righteous sound on stage and if they are mutually exclusive, I'd say I want the other musicians on stage with me to hear the best sound. Without it, our interaction and the music might suffer. And the musicians on stage with me are the ones who will call me (or not call me) for the next gig. I don't really think they're always mutually exclusive, but yes probably a compromise sometimes like you said.

Now if I was playing to larger audiences regularly, and if they were actually listening intently, I might feel differently. Alas, such is not usually the case for me.

 

[mstclairmiller]

I guess you need the source of your sound to be the pick-ups and/or mics that you use, as against your amp/cab combination. That way, as long as the pa and the backline is faithfully reproducing what the signal you give it, you will be getting your sound on stage as well as out front. Maybe I'm being a little idealistic...it would be great if all speakers and amps were 'unvoiced' and only reproduced what was put into them.

But then again, if that were true we wouldn't have such wonderful things as the Ampeg B15, which certainly isn't hi-fi, but has TONE. I guess the problem with such an amp is that you have to mic up the amp rather than your instrument to send a signal to the FoH. Which brings me back to my original point - its the system you use to get a signal from your instrument that is most important.

 

[Ric Vice]

But then again, if that were true we wouldn't have such wonderful things as the Ampeg B15, which certainly isn't hi-fi, but has TONE. I guess the problem with such an amp is that you have to mic up the amp rather than your instrument to send a signal to the FoH. Which brings me back to my original point - its the system you use to get a signal from your instrument that is most important.

mstclairmiller:
This is a very astute observation on your part. The older Ampeg B-15's do have great tone quality, don't they? That Portaflex Cabinet design actually resonates in a way that sounds like a bass to my ears. I've always wondered what you would get if you combined a 15" Speaker with a wizzer cone (as far as I know no one makes a speaker like this) and loaded it into the Portaflex. I think it also has something to do with the fact that the older B-15's had very low power heads. The cabinet had to be very efficent to reproduce the bass with that small an amp. When you mic them you can boost the volume without distorting that great tone. So in a way it's very similar to using a mic on an bass instrument. IMHO

Ric

 

[mstclairmiller]

Ric, I actually used a reissue B15, which I think was 100 watts, and it went loud enough for me. It just emphasises the conundrum of how to get a sound - so many posts are about getting a 'true' sound from your bass and 'hifi' amp, and then along comes 120lbs of Ampeg behemoth that turns all this received wisdom on its head.

Also, I think the efficiency of the B15 cabs probably comes from having a large box for the speaker to resonate in and only a very basic port (a hole in the baffle board) and a small magnet. Boosting the mids with a wizzy speaker may kill the amp's mojo, but it would be an interesting experiment. Shame I'm never going to lug one around! My back, wrists and elbows couldn't cope.

I think the answer to the original question must lie somewhere in the middle - have a great sound coming from your pickup/mic combination, and then DI this to the PA and hope for the best (if its a good PA they should be able to run the signal flat and get a decent sound), and have the sound you want on stage too with your amp of choice.

 

[PB+J]

The B-15 was absolutely a "hi fi" amp--it was designed by guys who knew what they were doing, it was a good as a tube amp could get in terms of all the standard parameters for audio design. It was the Hi-fi bass amp of its day, and its day was a good day--audiophiles are still using those same amp designs

I'd agree with bolo-if there's a PA and a guy running it, go with a mic. If there's not, I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that the best you can get is an effective sound--not the acoustic sound of your bass, but maybe an approximation that's effective in the mix. I've tried using a mic live and it's hard--especially if you're always playing different venues and have no control over stage position/mic placement. I keep looking covetously at those H-clamps. I settled on the DYn-B because it doesn't have the quacky piezo thing that drives me nuts, but there are lots of times when I think a full circle might deliver a less faithful but more effective sound

 

[jrlynch]

well, the b15 might be a "hifi" amp, but piezo pickups are by definition not linear, so ... where does that leave you?

jeff.

 

[Marc Piane]

Getting a good live sound is really hard. I've decided there is no "one way". I've gone for the tool box approach. As much as I hate gear I hate bad tone even worse.

For gigs without PA support I just worry about a good tone on stage. You and the guys you play with are going to play better if they like what they hear. I've been using an EA Wizzy 12 M-Line and folks that have come to hear me say the tone in the house is really clear and full. Cool. Bottom line though... I want my STAGE tone to be killin' first.

I've never had good luck with a mic through an amp. I have a AI head and EA cab which is supposed to be the holy grail of setups for mics. I like it all right but it is a little too much hassle for the plug and play approach I like. One of the groups I play with often has a touch of funk in what we do so I need to be able to get a little kick if need be. That's what the guy writing the checks wants. Every situation and every player is different. Toolbox.

That said I try my best to convince sound guys that mic only is best to the PA. I'm not going to tell the guy how to do his job but I try my best. I have the H-Clamp and Audix D2 and that has really been working well for me. I can be a bit animated on stage so a mic on a stationary stand doesn't work best for me. Toolbox.

I even have a little GK for 'polite jazz' (as frichter put it). Small. Light. And great if all you need is to push a little more air than you can acoustically. Again, toolbox.

 

[Paul New]

Off topic, but do you think that H Clamp would hold a small condensor mic?

I usually use a Realist into my Contra and Wizzy M-Line for the stage, and an Audix Micro D to the house.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Check with (All Hail) Bob Gollihur's website but if I remember correctly (and it does happen occasionally) the H-Clamp's good for ~500 grams.

 

[bolo]

Off topic, but do you think that H Clamp would hold a small condensor mic?

I usually use a Realist into my Contra and Wizzy M-Line for the stage, and an Audix Micro D to the house.

Paul, that's a good question. Looks like the Audix Micro D comes with a special clamp of its own. The H-clamp accomodates your basic mic stand clip. So maybe the question is more like can the Audix Micro D work with your basic 3/8" or 5/8" mic clip ... I could not really tell from the web links I checked.

Jake's right about the 500 gram weight thing for the H-clamp. But you are nowhere near that w/ the Micro D.

 

[bolo]

... piezo pickups are by definition not linear, so ... where does that leave you?

Jeff, can you expand on that a little please? Not questioning what you said, just curious about the details.

 

[bolo]

Getting a good live sound is really hard. I've decided there is no "one way". I've gone for the tool box approach. As much as I hate gear I hate bad tone even worse.

For gigs without PA support I just worry about a good tone on stage. You and the guys you play with are going to play better if they like what they hear. I've been using an EA Wizzy 12 M-Line and folks that have come to hear me say the tone in the house is really clear and full. Cool. Bottom line though... I want my STAGE tone to be killin' first.

I've never had good luck with a mic through an amp. I have a AI head and EA cab which is supposed to be the holy grail of setups for mics. I like it all right but it is a little too much hassle for the plug and play approach I like. One of the groups I play with often has a touch of funk in what we do so I need to be able to get a little kick if need be. That's what the guy writing the checks wants. Every situation and every player is different. Toolbox.

That said I try my best to convince sound guys that mic only is best to the PA. I'm not going to tell the guy how to do his job but I try my best. I have the H-Clamp and Audix D2 and that has really been working well for me. I can be a bit animated on stage so a mic on a stationary stand doesn't work best for me. Toolbox.

I even have a little GK for 'polite jazz' (as frichter put it). Small. Light. And great if all you need is to push a little more air than you can acoustically. Again, toolbox.

Well said Marc.

I am doing a gig soon in a place where I have never played before. We are opening for the John Brown Quintet. I am taking all my s^&*, the whole toolbox, get there early and see what sounds best in that space. Oddly enough, the piano player suggested we do this, not me. Then we can decide on the spot what's gonna sound best in that space.

I know that seems like a lot of prep work, but for a gig like this I want it to be right.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I guess the problem with such an amp is that you have to mic up the amp rather than your instrument to send a signal to the FoH.


I think the answer to the original question must lie somewhere in the middle - have a great sound coming from your pickup/mic combination, and then DI this to the PA and hope for the best (if its a good PA they should be able to run the signal flat and get a decent sound), and have the sound you want on stage too with your amp of choice.

I'm not sure why that should be the case. I've had the best house and stage sound when the mic on the instrument is put through the PA system (even if it's a crappy Peavey the singer brings) than miking the cabinet (if I'm even using one).