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your thoughts on piracy and p2p

i would love to see research on this. i don't believe it for a second. i know downloaders love to say this, but i've yet to see any substantial proof from an independent verifier.

Here is a sample what I have bought in the last 3 months alone. All because I heard a song on Pandora and like it so I downloaded the album. Either loved it or hated it and bought the albums I liked and deleted the ones I hated.

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Would you like to me to provide receipts? I'm sure I could find most of them. I'm getting tired of being called a lier.

I can't vouch for others but I can prove with out a doubt that I do purchase much more music because I download it.
 
wheely, Why do you refuse to use itunes? They often are missing music, but you could have easily found the artists you mentioned.

4string, I can't think of anything objectionable about expecting the law to protect your property.

jimmy, I don't consider it to be greedy to charge what you're worth.

Personally, I find it deeply distressing how little the arts are valued right now. I admire Lessig for his thought (I've even emailed him saying so), but I think he's wrong. If we want to keep art alive we need to create a livable habitat for it. Not one of reused intellectual property but one where genuine creativity has value.

The happy medium is a nice idea, but much like the balance of nature and unicorns (utter b.s.), only a nice idea. Some what's his face (Radiohead frontman, I think) tried selling a quadruple album for about five bucks, even offering seven songs as free downloads, and it was pirated anyway. It would seem that to those who aspire to a world free of intellectual property rights (for philosophical reasons, or convenience), there is no half way point to meet them at.


Sorry if this comes across as a rant, I didn't mean it as such.
 
@colcifer:
I don't think art will die, only because artists don't get paid. There will always be people who need express themselves musically (or in other artistic ways). My guess is that no money for artists will simply result in different art. And concerning music I could imagine worse. I like music that is inspired by the pains of life better than music that is inspired by money...
 
I usually download P2P copies in order to sample new bands. Sometimes I get carried away and I end up with dozens of songs from a single band, at which point I usually buck up for legal download on iTunes (unless it can't be had. I'm still peeved I can't get Kate Bush's Hounds of Love on iTunes :mad:). I feel no obligation however, to pay "again" for albums I have owned several times over on now obsolete formats. As long as there is data transfer, people will always make copies of music and share it, regardless of whether it is right or wrong. There will be new formats and new types of encryption to secure it, and then there will simply be new people to hack it and make it available for free. The industry is really at the mercy of those who believe paying for music is the only conscionable choice.
 
@colcifer:
I don't think art will die, only because artists don't get paid. There will always be people who need express themselves musically (or in other artistic ways). My guess is that no money for artists will simply result in different art. And concerning music I could imagine worse. I like music that is inspired by the pains of life better than music that is inspired by money...

+1 ... The art will survive regardless. Everything changes and evolves. So must the music industry.
 
colcifer,
I gotta admit, I showed a drastic point of view. Of course you're right! Music takes a lot money, starting with good education. I only wanted to state that there will always be music, no matter what happens. In fact, I believe that good music (from an objective point of view, as much as possible) will have the smallest problems to survive. F.e. I think classical music and Jazz do not suffer from illegal downloads as much as mainstream music.
 
4string, I can't think of anything objectionable about expecting the law to protect your property.

I'm glad we're in complete and utter agreement on that one. :) I was just talking about the damage it'd do to bend the legal system to protect one's business model against irrelevance caused by changing technology. A business model is not property. It deserves no protection. If the situation changes, and your business refuses to adapt, welcome to history's junk heap. That's free enterprise.

The recording and movie industries have been pushing this envelope awfully hard in the name of protectionism for their business model.

Personally, I find it deeply distressing how little the arts are valued right now. I admire Lessig for his thought (I've even emailed him saying so), but I think he's wrong. If we want to keep art alive we need to create a livable habitat for it. Not one of reused intellectual property but one where genuine creativity has value.

I can't claim to have read Lessig's entire body of work, but at the least the book Free Culture is a passionate defense of keeping creativity and culture free. Free in the "libre" sense, not free in the "gratis" sense that illegal music downloaders rely on.

Nowhere in his work do I see a defense of derivative (you used the word "reused" ) culture to the exclusion of fully original culture. He does mention (rightfully, I think) that a large amount of culture that we find strikingly timely and original is in fact derivative in some sense. (Many of Walt Disney's wonderous works having their seed in classic faerie tales, etc. as an example) You have to protect it all, I suppose is an important take-away.

The happy medium is a nice idea, but much like the balance of nature and unicorns (utter b.s.), only a nice idea. Some what's his face (Radiohead frontman, I think) tried selling a quadruple album for about five bucks, even offering seven songs as free downloads, and it was pirated anyway. It would seem that to those who aspire to a world free of intellectual property rights (for philosophical reasons, or convenience), there is no half way point to meet them at.

I read a comic book that is released in 6 page installments weekly for free on its website. They make their money off of merchandising and trade paperbacks collecting the story into unified, high-quality print volumes. The book is written by Warren Ellis. He mentioned a while back that he's found the book on pirate comic torrents lately.

He wondered if the pirates even knew that the book was released weekly on the website entirely for free, or if they were scanning the paper version and offering their pirate friends a reduced-quality version months late. He seemed amused at the possibility. I am too. People getting inferior product as a result of a reflexive "steal!" impulse would be funny.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant, I didn't mean it as such.

Nahh. These issues are important to our culture, and the issue of who controls it in the future.
 
I'm 37 and only recently got into the downloading thing. I have to say it's nice to be able to get what you want when you want and even find some things that you never knew existed. I tend to also buy a lot of music. I've purchased 40-50 cd's this year as well as several paid for online downloads and tickets for several shows. I've also grabbed about 40-50 cd's worth of material on p2p and torrent sites, and I have a Rhapsody subscription. My illegal downloads usually consist of material that I have purchased in my 37 years and worn out or can no longer use practically (Cassettes, 8 tracks, records) or things that have been stolen. I had 150 cd's stolen out of my truck a few years back and have probably only replaced half of them with downloads. I am in a small indy band that is not trying to make it and I don't care if you download my music for free. Hell ask me for it and I'll send it. However I do respect the little guy with a dream and he is usually the one getting my money for cd's right now. Ozzy doesn't need my cd money, Zakk Wylde doesn't need my cd money, neither do any of the other big names I love. However Levi Lowery will get my cash as will Matt McCloskey, and Erik Larsen and the Peacemakers. What does this all mean? Not a damn thing other than let your conscience be your guide and enjoy the music.

H
 
I probably wouldn't have shelled out $50 to see Lamb Of God if I hadn't downloaded one of their cd's. So, a loss of $2-$3 on a cd sale netted them a ticket sale plus a $35 shirt at the show. I have a collection of at least 400+ cd's (not counting cassettes or vinyl) and I've bought my fair share of bad ones simply because years ago all you had to go on was either a single you heard/saw a music video for or word of mouth.

Even after cd's came out, the music industry wanted the Government to impose an 'entertainment tax' on blank cassettes because people were either recording songs off the radio or making mix tapes and thus 'depriving them of sales'.

This past summer, Tom Petty had the right idea. With the purchase of a ticket to one of his shows, the buyer got a free copy of his new cd. I think the main reason major labels are whining about filesharing is because they're dumping so much money into promoting 'fluff' like the 're-united' Backstreet Boys, Brittney Spears, etc.... and instead of blaming people for not wanting to pay $100 plus for that, they're blaming it on people downloading music instead.

Like others have said, artists like Radiohead and Trent Reznor have decided to use this as an advantage and are proof that musicians can thrive in this new environment.

Unfortunately making a living as a recording artist is not as lucrative as it was a while ago. As for performing artists though, the internet/filesharing shoould be viewed as free advertising. If you have a cd for $15 on your website and one that's free, which do you think will be heard the most?
As such, the more people that hear you, the better the chances of having people show up at your gigs and buy merch like shirts, stickers, etc... that bands tend to profit much more from as opposed to what they might get from higher cd sales and lower show attendance.
 
The industry created a vacuum of fairly-priced product, and nature abhors a vacuum. They brought it on themselves. Most bands make very little on album sales anyway, so one could argue P2P screws the labels, not really the artist. This may hold some water with the big names, but this thinking does not apply to smaller names - even if you only make a buck per disc, if you sell 100,000 copies, that album had a substantial impact on your lifetime earnings. As far as the "format" issue, the labels say we never actually own the music, only the media that carries it ie:just because you owned it on vinyl, cassette, and CD doesn`t mean you have a right to P2P it. Well, if that`s the case - I`m only purchasing the format, not the music, then CDs should have been priced @ $7. That would give the artist their $1, mfg $1, marketing $1, recording cost < $1, and the record labels a quite nice $3 per disc profit for "renting" the music until the next format comes along. But because we bought CDs @ $15 apiece by the billions, they sold `em to us. MP3 wasn`t intended to be used for P2P, but because there existed that vacuum, it was inevitable for P2P to be born. When Napster first launched, I thought it was great - and I still DL an occasional song or two here and there. And yes, Jimmy, it does lead to me buying discs - I just don`t buy the crappy ones anymore. As far as Apple`s proprietary system, it`s as greedy, if not more, that the old system, and I refuse to support it. Songs cost Apple mere cents, if that. Major artists make pennies per DL too - less than on CDs. And Apple doesn`t even provide a physical product. But I will say that iTunes is great for indie artists - but I still prefer discs, and will track `em down and buy `em whenever possible.
 
I don't live in a part of the world where the music I like is accessible. (I'm a fan of progressive rock) That is the ONLY reason I illegally download music. There is no way I can buy a Magma/Porcupine Tree/King Crimson album without having to shell out more than what would be equal to 70 dollars for each album.

I normally use a torrent app to download the music I like, and when I get the chance to buy an album for a reasonable price (for example, when I or someone I know goes to the US or Europe, which happens quite often) I'll get it, and if I can buy from a more artist-friendly label like Burning Shed I'll do it. I feel the need to support the bands I love, and I'd gladly spend my money to watch one of their gigs, but spending 70 bucks for an album is bats**t crazy.



And don't buy music via iTunes, support an artist buying music from Bandcamp or indie labels.
 
I'm 37 and only recently got into the downloading thing. I have to say it's nice to be able to get what you want when you want and even find some things that you never knew existed. I tend to also buy a lot of music. I've purchased 40-50 cd's this year as well as several paid for online downloads and tickets for several shows. I've also grabbed about 40-50 cd's worth of material on p2p and torrent sites, and I have a Rhapsody subscription. My illegal downloads usually consist of material that I have purchased in my 37 years and worn out or can no longer use practically (Cassettes, 8 tracks, records) or things that have been stolen. I had 150 cd's stolen out of my truck a few years back and have probably only replaced half of them with downloads. I am in a small indy band that is not trying to make it and I don't care if you download my music for free. Hell ask me for it and I'll send it. However I do respect the little guy with a dream and he is usually the one getting my money for cd's right now. Ozzy doesn't need my cd money, Zakk Wylde doesn't need my cd money, neither do any of the other big names I love. However Levi Lowery will get my cash as will Matt McCloskey, and Erik Larsen and the Peacemakers. What does this all mean? Not a damn thing other than let your conscience be your guide and enjoy the music.

H


+1, I don't buy music from the big names anymore. They're already earning their bread charging $250+ for a ticket.
 

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