I remember tweaking this, but then after not hearing any difference - I left it alone. In hindsight, I completely forgot to test the adjustment in levels against the actual recording output.
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Zoom B3 As Preamp Part 2
- Thread starter David Wilson
- Start date
I remember tweaking this, but then after not hearing any difference - I left it alone. In hindsight, I completely forgot to test the adjustment in levels against the actual recording output.
Actually I did. I have it rolled all the way to 0, which is -6dB.... I may have something else going on.
I suspect that some/all of your B3's internal LEVEL params may be set too high.
Besides the LEVEL param under every effect slot, LEVEL params also exist under the TOTAL and GLOBAL menus.
Lots of LEVEL talk and tips can be found in Part I of this thread.
So I've flipped through some of these pages, and tried a few of the things you guys are doing. I have a B3 obviously. I have to say, nothing I try sounds good to me. I'm using a B3 direct into an IEM system, and have tried all manner of MIX parameters and EQ settings on the amp sims. They all sound unusable to me honestly. I'm pretty familiar with most of the real life amplifiers that were modeled for the B3, and can make most any of those work, yet I can't seem to get a decent tone out of any of the B3's amp sims. They all sound WAY overly dramatic, hyped up, in-your-face, etc. Since so many of you are saying the models are authentic, I have to believe it's user error somewhere on my part. What am I missing?
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I edited my post above because when I came back to check if there were any updates to this thread, my post seemed to put down anyone who might be liking the B3. That wasn't what I was trying to get across at all, so I edited it. Basically I'm just wondering what I might be doing wrong to cause the B3 to sound so unlike everything it is trying to emulate. I've reset it to factory defaults per the user manual also. Thanks in advance for any assistance!
It's difficult to know what exactly you're trying to achieve. There are so many tones.
I think you have to play a bit with the different settings to becaome more familar with the tones you can get. And I guess the sound of a rig played on a cab will not be the same when listened with earphones : your earphones may have a baked in eq for example (they often have boosted lows).
What I would do is a patch with an amp sim of your choice and then the AcBsPre.
Set the AcBsPre with a gain of 50, Depth at 10, Level at 100 and everything else at 0. Like that it will be flat and have a unity level.
Then check that when you press "Total" balance and level are at 100 on your patch.
You can now play with the amp sim :
- tweak the knob to feel what frequencies they impact as they're different depending on the models, and play with the cab sim level + model.
I have the feeling, but I may be wrong, that when the cab sim are set at 100, they're too heavy : heavy cuts in the mids.
You can try with a level between 30 and 70 if you want to feel the cab sim effect with a less important impact. Or set at 0 if you don't want to have it at all.
- what I saw too is that most of the amp models are almost flat when Bass, Mids and Trebles are at 0 (Bassman and SuperBass are different : they have a strong baked in voice). It's different from the real models who often have a strong baked in tone (bigger low mids and trebles for the ampeg, big lows and highs for the GK,...). So to get the feeling of the flat setted amp you already know you'll have to play with the knob.
- Once you have the feeling you're in the good spirit but still not there, you can use the AcBsPre to push or cut some frequencies :
- Bass is set at 40 hz
- Low mids are set like you want
- Mids at 1.6 kHz
- High Mids at 3 kHz
- Highs : way higher (I don't remember the exact value)
- Depth is a HPF : it cuts the ultra lows (10 = full lows - 0 = full cut)
- Reducing Highs can help to simulate the High end roll off of a cab without tweeter.
So, a lot of informations and possibilities
The nice thing on the amp sim and AcBsPre is the sweeping mids. You can push or cut the mids you want and it will have a big impact on your tone.
If you're not sure where to go, set the mids at 7 for example and sweep them. You'll hear clearly what nuance it can add to your tone.
Then do the same at -7.
It's really a matter of time to get used to all this settings. They help you to get as many possibilities as you want, but it's less simple than a classic rig.
I think you have to play a bit with the different settings to becaome more familar with the tones you can get. And I guess the sound of a rig played on a cab will not be the same when listened with earphones : your earphones may have a baked in eq for example (they often have boosted lows).
What I would do is a patch with an amp sim of your choice and then the AcBsPre.
Set the AcBsPre with a gain of 50, Depth at 10, Level at 100 and everything else at 0. Like that it will be flat and have a unity level.
Then check that when you press "Total" balance and level are at 100 on your patch.
You can now play with the amp sim :
- tweak the knob to feel what frequencies they impact as they're different depending on the models, and play with the cab sim level + model.
I have the feeling, but I may be wrong, that when the cab sim are set at 100, they're too heavy : heavy cuts in the mids.
You can try with a level between 30 and 70 if you want to feel the cab sim effect with a less important impact. Or set at 0 if you don't want to have it at all.
- what I saw too is that most of the amp models are almost flat when Bass, Mids and Trebles are at 0 (Bassman and SuperBass are different : they have a strong baked in voice). It's different from the real models who often have a strong baked in tone (bigger low mids and trebles for the ampeg, big lows and highs for the GK,...). So to get the feeling of the flat setted amp you already know you'll have to play with the knob.
- Once you have the feeling you're in the good spirit but still not there, you can use the AcBsPre to push or cut some frequencies :
- Bass is set at 40 hz
- Low mids are set like you want
- Mids at 1.6 kHz
- High Mids at 3 kHz
- Highs : way higher (I don't remember the exact value)
- Depth is a HPF : it cuts the ultra lows (10 = full lows - 0 = full cut)
- Reducing Highs can help to simulate the High end roll off of a cab without tweeter.
So, a lot of informations and possibilities
The nice thing on the amp sim and AcBsPre is the sweeping mids. You can push or cut the mids you want and it will have a big impact on your tone.
If you're not sure where to go, set the mids at 7 for example and sweep them. You'll hear clearly what nuance it can add to your tone.
Then do the same at -7.
It's really a matter of time to get used to all this settings. They help you to get as many possibilities as you want, but it's less simple than a classic rig.
^^^
All good info from ticol07 above, but I would perhaps take a more organic approach by starting with only one amp model and no other effect slots.
+1 also on the huge difference (IMHO) between the sound of a rig versus the headphone experience.
I am curious to know of the bass in question, the IEM system, and most importantly, the connections/path from Bass to B3 to IEM.
Cheers!
All good info from ticol07 above, but I would perhaps take a more organic approach by starting with only one amp model and no other effect slots.
+1 also on the huge difference (IMHO) between the sound of a rig versus the headphone experience.
I am curious to know of the bass in question, the IEM system, and most importantly, the connections/path from Bass to B3 to IEM.
Cheers!
Thanks for the responses. Basses are usually a P or J bass. IEM varies. At home I usually plug directly into a little Tascam MP-BT1 for noiseless practicing. For gigs it just depends on where I am and what system they have, but it's all professional with a crew of engineers running things. The IEM system itself is usually Aviom or Rolland. I've used a plethora of gear through all of these sytems. Tone Hammer, all manner of Sansamp gear, and many of amps also I've used as only a preamp feeding the IEM system. Those include rigs from Aguilar, TC Electronic, Genz Benz, GK, etc. Used all this same stuff in the studio more times than I can count. I've also mic'ed cabinets in ISO boxes, both live and in the studio. B15's, SVT/810 rigs, etc. I'm intimately familiar with the real stuff.
The CLOSEST thing on the B3 that sounds like the real product it emulates is the BDDI sim. When I hear that, it sounds pretty close. Nothing else even causes me to think of the gear it purports to emulate. I have to think that it is something I'm doing wrong for it to be that off. I used to have an old Bass Pod XT that at least sounded close to the things it tried to emulate. I even used one live quite a bit a number of years ago. Like most digital stuff back then, I quit using it live because it seemed to just be a bit lifeless at times. I was hoping the B3 might have resolved some of that, but I'll be darned if I can't even get it to work at all. The SVT and B15 settings sound nothing like the real dig, and Aguilar sim is a far cry from the DB750/GS410 rig I love so much and have used on many occasions in the past.
I guess I'm a bit baffled at this point. Maybe there is something physically wrong with the unit I've got? I took it in a trade just to get a chance to try it out. It looks to be in great shape. Factory defaulted it and started from scratch to be sure all was okay. But all the sims are either WAY overly bright and zingy, or the low end is so big that it's completely unrealistic to use for anything. Turning the tone knobs and adjusting the mids doesn't cause the sims to respond the way I know the real thing would respond. It's just bizarre.
Some of the simulated FX are okay however. It's just the amp/cab sims that I struggling with. Wish I could get them to work as I would use them for demo recording. I'm not looking for a live rig solution.
The CLOSEST thing on the B3 that sounds like the real product it emulates is the BDDI sim. When I hear that, it sounds pretty close. Nothing else even causes me to think of the gear it purports to emulate. I have to think that it is something I'm doing wrong for it to be that off. I used to have an old Bass Pod XT that at least sounded close to the things it tried to emulate. I even used one live quite a bit a number of years ago. Like most digital stuff back then, I quit using it live because it seemed to just be a bit lifeless at times. I was hoping the B3 might have resolved some of that, but I'll be darned if I can't even get it to work at all. The SVT and B15 settings sound nothing like the real dig, and Aguilar sim is a far cry from the DB750/GS410 rig I love so much and have used on many occasions in the past.
I guess I'm a bit baffled at this point. Maybe there is something physically wrong with the unit I've got? I took it in a trade just to get a chance to try it out. It looks to be in great shape. Factory defaulted it and started from scratch to be sure all was okay. But all the sims are either WAY overly bright and zingy, or the low end is so big that it's completely unrealistic to use for anything. Turning the tone knobs and adjusting the mids doesn't cause the sims to respond the way I know the real thing would respond. It's just bizarre.
Some of the simulated FX are okay however. It's just the amp/cab sims that I struggling with. Wish I could get them to work as I would use them for demo recording. I'm not looking for a live rig solution.
^^^
For purposes for diagnosing this issue, what is the signal chain you are using?
From a passive P or J bass into the B3 (with no pedals in between) and then to where/how from the B3?
For purposes for diagnosing this issue, what is the signal chain you are using?
From a passive P or J bass into the B3 (with no pedals in between) and then to where/how from the B3?
I've tried it many different ways, but in order to simplify I've been running my passive P or J directly into the B3, and then run the 1/4" out directly to my Tascam at home, or directly into JDI or J48 at a gig. I've tried putting my trust Aguilar TLC comp in front of the B3 to act as a buffer to see if that would prevent any strange pickup loading issues, but it doesn't seem to matter.
Quite honestly, the amp/cab sims just sound poorly done to me, but I don't want to give up too soon. A lot of the FX sound just fine...digital representations of course, but they sound fine. Even the various EQ's sound good. I have a Boss GEB7 graphic EQ pedal, and the graphic EQ on the B3 seems to work just like it does. It just seems like the amp modeling is WAY off. I keep hoping there is a setting somewhere in there that I'm missing that is throwing all those things off.
So given my signal chain above, and how I'm using it, I should have the MIX set to 0 or 100%? On some of the sims, tweaking the mix seems to do very little to the tone.
But you are talking of factory presets or you tried to create your own sounds ?
Because the factory presets are for many very exagerated.
Because the factory presets are for many very exagerated.
The mix is the amount of cab sim you put in your signal.
0 -> only the amp
100 -> the amp + full cab sim
This is why you can get in 2 steps :
- at first the amp without cab sim
- then adjust the amount of cab sim to get the effect of an amp plugged to a cab.
0 -> only the amp
100 -> the amp + full cab sim
This is why you can get in 2 steps :
- at first the amp without cab sim
- then adjust the amount of cab sim to get the effect of an amp plugged to a cab.
I've tried the patches and the factory presets. Then I've taken the amp sims and set all the EQ's flat, and tried them with and without cab sims on top of them, with different mix settings. Exagerated is a good word. They all sound exagerated, and then when you set the EQ flat, they sound very bland and lackluster.
The Acoustic 360 is one that really baffles me. A real 360 has a very distinct tone that colors most any bass you put through it. The POD emulation of the 360 covers that quite well. On the B3, it's not even in the same general universe to my year. That's what makes me wonder if I'm missing something somewhere.
I think it's because the flat setting of the B3 sims are not the flat settings of the original amps.
Did you try to play with bass treble mids only without cab sim, just to get something that puts you in the ballpark ? As if you were listening to the DI of an amp.
Did you try to play with bass treble mids only without cab sim, just to get something that puts you in the ballpark ? As if you were listening to the DI of an amp.
Set each individual patch on the B3 to unity (this being when in the tuner bypass mode) and global level to 100.
You can turn down the USB recording level (as already said) and there is also an input level in Audacity. When I recorded with Audacity I found the B3 really clipped, I remember that I had to lower the input level quite a bit.
I have used the B3 quite successfully over the past 3 years for live work and thankfully, I have greatly enjoyed the ride.
I continue to be fascinated by DSP devices, with amp/cabinet modeling being my primary use for them, as I am generally not into effects for bass guitar.
Over the years, I have purchased/used a number of different products on the market, but IMHO, I have found none more capable than the latest generation of Zoom devices which utilize their ZFX-IV processor.
Granted, experiences are highly subjective and this technology is not for everyone. With that said I simply recommend that one use what they enjoy.
In the future I hope to post some new thread content to better expose, share and leverage the capabilities of the B3 with regards to amp/cab modeling, but until then I am confident that many of you will continue to do so as well.
Cheers!
I continue to be fascinated by DSP devices, with amp/cabinet modeling being my primary use for them, as I am generally not into effects for bass guitar.
Over the years, I have purchased/used a number of different products on the market, but IMHO, I have found none more capable than the latest generation of Zoom devices which utilize their ZFX-IV processor.
Granted, experiences are highly subjective and this technology is not for everyone. With that said I simply recommend that one use what they enjoy.
In the future I hope to post some new thread content to better expose, share and leverage the capabilities of the B3 with regards to amp/cab modeling, but until then I am confident that many of you will continue to do so as well.
Cheers!
Yeah, I don't want to dog these products at all. I've used a lot of DSP stuff also, and still have a TC Electronic RH450 that I'm super happy with. Full DSP under the hood for everything. I just can't seem to find the amp models in the B3 yet. I'm going to keep playing with it for a another week or so, then just put it up for sale if it's not for me. Thanks for the help everyone.
The Amp sims do take some work. I think they're a little exaggerated (big lows, scooped mids, etc) even though many people have said that they're quite accurate. Assuming you're not using them with the cab sim set high through a bass amp, the AcBs Pre with the HPF set around 6-7 can help and cab sim around 80 gives good results through headphones and recording (no experience with FRFR so far).
It is work noting that the cab makes a huge difference as most of the amp heads are very similar. The SVT through the Bassman cab gives a very different sound. I generally prefer different combinations to the preselected ones.
This is my first post in a new, short series and I hope some may find it useful.
Ground Zero
To me, the most unfortunate thing about the B3 is that there is no fair starting point to it. One must begin their journey of experimentation over a catastrophe of preset patches.
Additionally, one needs to connect the B3 some place in order to hear it and that alone presents inconsistencies in experiences.
To me, the B3 (and other modelers) thrive when injected into systems capable of full-range reproduction. Certainly, should one not have have a full-range system, sounds from the B3 will still be audible, although they are likely colored. This may or may not spoil the experience. Additionally, one must ensure the B3's output signal is not over/under-driving the input of the device.
With that said, I would now like to begin our journey together here in a series of posts intended to get one up-and-running with amp/cabinet modeling.
Plug your bass into the B3 and then run a cable from the B3's "L/MONO" 1/4" output jack to a device or path that provides the least amount of additional coloration.
To prepare the B3:
In future post(s) we will give this DI a make-over using the amp and cabinet models, but it is very important that we start here.
Cheers!
Ground Zero
To me, the most unfortunate thing about the B3 is that there is no fair starting point to it. One must begin their journey of experimentation over a catastrophe of preset patches.
Additionally, one needs to connect the B3 some place in order to hear it and that alone presents inconsistencies in experiences.
To me, the B3 (and other modelers) thrive when injected into systems capable of full-range reproduction. Certainly, should one not have have a full-range system, sounds from the B3 will still be audible, although they are likely colored. This may or may not spoil the experience. Additionally, one must ensure the B3's output signal is not over/under-driving the input of the device.
With that said, I would now like to begin our journey together here in a series of posts intended to get one up-and-running with amp/cabinet modeling.
Plug your bass into the B3 and then run a cable from the B3's "L/MONO" 1/4" output jack to a device or path that provides the least amount of additional coloration.
To prepare the B3:
- Select any patch you don't mind modifying
- From the GLOBAL menu, set LEVEL to 100
- From the TOTAL menu, set LEVEL to 100 and BAL to 100
- Disengage all of the 3 effect slots using the foot-switches
In future post(s) we will give this DI a make-over using the amp and cabinet models, but it is very important that we start here.
Cheers!
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