Double Bass Playing Big Venues: What's the Right PA/Amp Mix?

I don't have any experience playing in tents, just large halls. Inside and outside are two different animals. BUT, having said that, there are some things you wnat to bear in mind.

No matter HOW big and powerful your amplifier and speaker are, you are playing primarily acoustic music. If you get your amp to a volume level that is playing to the back of the venue, you are already playing too loud for the band on the stage. The whole idea behind a Public Address system is to get the sound on the stage to the rest of the hall. Get the stage sound of the band set where everybody in the band can hear everybody else, then bring in the sound guys. If they have to get the house sound loud enough so that you hear more of the band in the house than you do onstage, then you need monitors to balance that sound. It's always disconcerting to play a note and hear it come from somewhere in front of you, but DON'T turn up the stage sound. Bring in monitors to give you a little boost onstage.

Second, NEVER EVER EVER put the pickup through the PA. I've had the most success at getting a big warm but still defined sound by using an amp onstage (when necessary) and putting a microphone ON THE INSTRUMENT NOT THE AMP through the PA system. The combination of direct amp sound from the stage and mic sound through the system gives a very natural sound to the audience.

If they don't respond well to micing the instrument, then you may want to consider a line out from the amp to the PA.

I’ve had the opportunity to do the lighting design/board op gig for the main stage at the Vancouver Jazzfest in a 2000 seat theatre the last couple of years and the vast majority of bass players do not put their pickup through the PA and used a mic on the bass. A few like Ben Wolfe and I think Dwayne Burno and/or Charnett Moffett (among others) didn’t use a pickup or bass amp at all getting just mic through their on stage monitor. One notable player who did put pickup through the FOH (and didn’t use a mic at all) was Dave Holland and as much as I respect his playing his sound out in the house was really, really awful…(kinda surprising for a guy who has “NO DIGITAL MONITOR CONSOLES” in his rider). Ed already gave you the best advice you’re gonna get and it is in fact the way I’ve seen quite a few great players do it.

Also I'd let the sound tech (if there is one) use the mic he likes and only use your stuff if he doesn't have anything suitable. If it's a pro audio company chances are he's experienced with acoustic instruments and gonna have a nice cardioid broadcast mic that will work better through a large PA than what you have and you may be best off to take his advice and let him do his job. If not use your mic only through the PA and your amp and pickup as needed. Keep in mind a pro monitor rig (again assuming there is one) is a big, clean, flat response system and a good one will leave any bass amp in the dust in terms of true acoustic sound.


jeff

bonaventura said:

Please clarify part of your comment for me. You say NEVER EVER "put the pickup through the PA" (which seems to mean DON'T run direct mic-to-PA -- have I got that right?)

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No, pickup is pickup and mic is mic. Pickup into amp. Mic (on the bass, not on the speaker cabinet) into PA. Mic direct to PA=YES, pickup direct to PA=NO. Is that any clearer?

BUN E. VENTURE said:

but then you add: "put a microphone ON THE INSTRUMENT NOT THE AMP through the PA system". I don't understand what you mean by that second comment: Are you suggesting running the mic directly to the PA there?

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Yes, precisely.

BILLY VENTURA said:

Should I run the AMT directly from its EQ box to the PA? Would that give me the good warm round sound for the Public? I would still have the Realist for the amp on stage. Please clarify your statement.

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Well, I don't know the AMT real well, I use a Sennheisser MD409, which doesn't have a pre-amp/EQ box. My supposition is that the EQ box is primarily there to make a smooth interface between the mic and your personal amp, but like I said, I don't have any familiarity with using the AMT. The concert gig I did down in GA was in a medium size hall and I did just as JEFE BUNNY relates - no amp, mic through the house PA - and that was plenty of sound.

SO, if your AMT has the capability of being plugged directly into a PA mic input, I'd recommend trying that. If it doesn't, then yes, use your EQ box directly into the PA.

Ed is right - generally those pro sound systems can get plenty of sound just from a mic on the bass. Have them try just that first before giving them ANYTHING from the amp.

or you can get the the a++ who did sound while I was at the Montreal Jazz fest last year and made just a mic on my bass sound like really bad cecil mcbee from 1980, I really don't know how a mic can sound like a direct pickup with low action and steel strings on a bass with high action and garbos.

Ya, the soundmen at the Jazzfest are pretty hit or miss. I did a gig one year where my bass sounded great through my amp and acoustically. The bass was miked to the PA. The sound coming out of the monitors sounded like I was plugged into a Marshall guit amp with the overdrive cranked. The soundguy blamed it on my bass. He couldn't explain why my bass sounded great acoustically and through my amp but sounded like $#!? through his monitors with his mike. It was ok through the PA. The drummer got to listen to a buzzsaw for the next 45 minutes. Ahh.. the Jazz Fest...

BAN ADVENTURE said:

FOO, Quoi?

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Excellent!

Vancouver's festival sound techs are really good - except for the outdoor stages, where I don't think I've ever heard a good bass sound, or, well ... the guy who mixed Drumheller (great, great band from TO) on the Gastown stage last year made the trombone player sound like he was phoning it in. And I don't mean that he wasn't playing with conviction, I mean, it sounded like he was on the phone.

Anyway +1 on letting the sound tech send a mic to the house before fiddling with anything else ... and hope they know what they're doing ...

I've been a sound guy more often than bass player; sadly I have to admit that many sound guys don't know how to get an accurate bass sound. The above advice (pickup to amp/stage, mic to PA) is good. However you're at the mercy of the sound guy - if he's not getting a decent sound out front you need to gently negotiate what you want. I usually ask to hear the sound with no EQ or compression - most often, that's what sounds good if you've got your own sound properly worked out. You may need to ask for a lot less low end to clean up the sound, especially if the PA and operator are more suited to doing rock bands.
The biggest problem is when the PA has over-loud subwoofers. Crossover is usually around 100Hz, and the fundamentals of any note you play below that (E & A strings) will boom out and anything above is lost. I've recently heard gigs by Dave Matthews Band and John Butler Trio where professional sound guys with high-end rigs got it totally wrong. They adjust the sub level to give a massive kick drum sound and assume the bass needs the same amount of low end.
If at all possible, get someone else to play your bass while you listen out front, or get someone who knows your sound to tell you how it sounds during sound check.

bonaventura said:

I really like the sound of the AMT, but it does tend to feed back if not carefully managed, and that's one of my concerns about using the PA.

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If a mic crosses in front of the PA's speaker line, it is much more prone to feeding back.

So I think if it is done properly, you will have much less of a problem w/ feedback from your mic if it is just running through the mains versus through your amp. That's because the mains are usually in front of you on stage, while your amp is usually behind you.

For the same reason, since your amp and it's "speaker line" are usually behind you, it is more prone to feeding back and more difficult to manage in that regard.

Dave Chokroun said:

Vancouver's festival sound techs are really good - except for the outdoor stages, where I don't think I've ever heard a good bass sound, or, well ... the guy who mixed Drumheller (great, great band from TO) on the Gastown stage last year made the trombone player sound like he was phoning it in. And I don't mean that he wasn't playing with conviction, I mean, it sounded like he was on the phone.

Anyway +1 on letting the sound tech send a mic to the house before fiddling with anything else ... and hope they know what they're doing ...

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I hear you about Vans sound techs, I also play in a band with Nick Fraiser the leader of Drumheller and he's a great guy.

When I get a really bad feeling about the sound tech - if, for example, it's a guy of a certain age with a ponytail who says "What?" a lot - those are the times I will say, just put a mic on the amp. Hey, I used to do sound quite a bit - I know that guy pretty well.

<hijack>
Neal, what's your band with Nick? Those guys rule - Rob Clutton was my bass hero when I started playing. Out of all those Toronto inside / outside projects, I particularly like Bla Bla 666 - Nick and Jean Martin both playing one drumkit, theremin, melodica, fretless guitar, and, uh, an amplified twanging ruler for a bass. They play standards - "Sophisticated Lady," "Ipanema," etc., etc. Seriously.
<ok, /hijack>

I play in Avi Granites band with nick, kevin brow was the drummer in it before he left for coppenhagen, nick is on the new album we just recorded.(He's sounding great) Rob is a great bass player with a really nice prescott bass I believe. I used to live up the street from Jean Martin but my wife and I are living in North York now so I don't get to check out as many interesting shows as I used to but there is deffinately a lot of great interesting music going on here right now.

bolo said:

If a mic crosses in front of the PA's speaker line, it is much more prone to feeding back. So I think if it is done properly, you will have much less of a problem w/ feedback from your mic if it is just running through the mains versus through your amp. That's because the mains are usually in front of you on stage, while your amp is usually behind you ...

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Chris Fitzgerald said:

I run a mixed signal to the house all the time, and by all accounts, the results are good. A couple of things that I think can help if you decide to do this ....

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Wow .... this thread is incredibly useful to me . Thanks to everyone involved !

OK ... here's my deal. I've got a Coda 2-channel Series III but no Wizzy 10 extension to help it out yet. I am planning / attempting to blend a Peavy dynamic cardioid PVM-22 mic (for now .... I know there are probably better mics for bass) mounted thru the string after-lengths at about a 45 degree angle under the bridge with a Solo Rev II pup via the Coda and then send a post-eq direct out to the Mackie PA system. We are keeping the PA speakers well out front of us and I keep the Coda box on the floor next to me and a bit in front of my bass. We play pretty tight to each other to hear what's happening acoustically and don't use any monitors. The only other mic we use is a centralized AT 4033/Cl cardioid condenser mic that the other players (vocals, guitar, mando, fiddle, banjo) huddle around and move in and out with solos. The single AT mic is inline beside me. I am not behind the other players . Later this summer we are doing some outdoor gigs where we are going to have to get some volume (but not festival mondo volume / not a bunch of crowd noise) out of this set-up. We have no sound pros .. us misfits are it .

My questions are:
1) Are we on the right track with our approach?
2) Why should I not send a blended mic / pickup signal (favoring the mic to get that good double bass / non-electrified slab sound) from the Coda "direct out" jack to the PA? (As opposed to the mic going direct to the PA and the pup into the Coda.)
3) What feedback issues will we risk with what I just described?
4) What would y'all do different?
5) What questions am I not asking?

Thanks in advance .... my learning never stops .

ToneRanger said:

You may need to ask for a lot less low end to clean up the sound, especially if the PA and operator are more suited to doing rock bands.

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The last time I made a similar request, the sound guy replied, in a voice dripping with contempt: "How do they call the instrument you play, again? It's a bass, right? Get it?"

Do you guys have any tips in sound dweeb management matters? I usually try to be as nice and positive as I can, and be very respectful when making requests, but when they clearly don't know what they're doing, I just suck it up and concentrate on my playing. But maybe somebody has a better way to deal with this kind of problem?

What Ed said.

amp-monitor
mic-house

Timo, I just get a stage sound that I can work with and let the sound man mess up the house mix from there. I've never had success talking to those guys and often they get pissed (like your example) if you try to help. I have to bite my tougue because I currently work part time as a recording engineer and I did a fair amount of live sound when I was in college.

I am learning what more seasoned players around here have been saying for years, don't give the guy a line off your pickup. Let him mic your bass or worst case your amp. I have had nothing but problems (feedback) if I give the guy a line. They just push up the level and forget it while you are left battling with howling feedback everytime you let a note sustain. If you have him mic the bass he a) gets a more accurate sound to start with and b) is forced to pay a little closer attention to what he is doing.