How much amp is enough for different size shows?

I have two Ampeg combos, each are 220W, a BA115HP and a BA210. One is plenty for practice, particularly for blues and jazz; my band plays classic blues and rock and the guitarists use 2-12 Mesa amps. I use both combos, one on each side of the drummer, for the stage. The reality is, for the venues we've played, I haven't needed to push them hard, even outside. We run lines out or mics for all our amps through the soundboard to the PA to balance the sound, so the amps aren't doing all the work. Bottom line is for the genre and smaller to mid size venues you foresee, a high powered combo should be fine. All that being said, I continue to crave an Ampeg stack rig; I guess I'm just from the old school!

skipster619 said:

Thanks, Jim, I really appreciate your comments. Can you tell me, what do you consider "a high powered combo"?? What is a minimum wattage? Will anything over 200W work? Would a Peavey TNT or a combo 115 get it done? I would think that the 600W Kustom would work out, assuming the sound and tone are good? Or is the reality that I would need TWO combo amps to play out?

Click to expand...

I don't think you need two, it really depends on who you're playing with and their equipment and volume. I went for two to ensure I get good sound saturation for the bass, and as you can tell I tend toward "more is better" as a personal preference; and I wanted to combine the tone coverage of the 15 inch and 10 inch speakers. Also some of the reviews I read of my combos indicated some dissatisfaction with volume level "not loud enough"; but this is really subjective, they probably aren't for today's new rock scene but I think it all depends on the venue - people like to be able to talk to each other in bars and at parties. I also found that though they initally didn't sound very loud in our basement practice sessions, once onstage I could walk out a good distance using my wireless during sound check and the sound just carried. I think this is the primary benefit of higher wattage.

I'm not an expert when it comes to all the different models, and I think at the same wattage you would hear differences in volume, tone and fullness so knowing what you're getting is important. I do think 200W and higher is where you'd want to shop around and compare. And I also think you should buy something with plenty of headroom so you don't find yourself overpowered. When shopping it would probably be a good idea to have someone play while you listen from across the room if you have the opportunity.

For what you are describing, pretty much any decent combo amp over 75 watts is going to do you just fine. If your in a club that has sound reinforcement, you just need to be loud enough to hear yourself on stage over your drummer. Being that it's a blues/jazz gig, in a very small room, I'm guessing your drummer isn't really bashing on the skins.

Hell, I've played in a loud rock and punk bands, with a 100 watt Sunn head, and a 1x12 cab with a mic and d/i, and a LOUD drummer. The Front of House, is doing most of the work that the audience hears anyway. Sure, more power is nice, and so are big cabs, but in many cases you'll just end up having to turn down to not tick off the sound guy.

Did a gig last night where we shared a backline with a nationaly touring band. Played through a Old G/K RB400 head (200 watts, compact, and fairly light, and inexpensive used) in a loud room w/ capcity around 300, with a louder drummer, and had bags of power to spare.

A nice small head like that, even the g/k backline 600 has WAY more power than you'll need, and a nice compact cab 1x15, 2x10 or even a good 1x12 will give you more than you need.

Remember the FOH is doing most of the work in bigger venues. I love all tube SVT's and my all tube Sunns, but to get them to sound good, you have to turn them up WAY too load for most club type shows. You really don't need big power, particularly for what you are trying to do.

I'd suggest first choice a nice compact head and cab, or second choice a decent combo in the 100 to 200 watt range. Go used for the best value per dollar ratio.

A buddy of mine has a sweet little set up.
GK Backline 600 head (new-$300 used-$200)
Hartke 410 transporter cab (under $200-used)
Portable,upgradeable,expandable.
Under $500, initial expense.

These guys are talking about 400 watts for loud rock shows:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348807

So you don't need that much.

There are several combos in the 100 to 200 watts range, like the swr workingman/workingpro 12 or swr workingman/workingpro 15 or Gallien-Krueger 400RB/115.

Let's talk cabinets. If you have one 8 ohm cabinet, then you connect that to an amp, you get the power rating out of that amp for 8 ohms. If you connect TWO 8 ohm cabinets to an amp, they combine for a connected load of 4 ohms, so you get the power rating out of that amp for 4 ohms.

I think your needs are around 180 to 200 watts (a medium power combo into 8 ohms) for smaller venues, so look for an amp or combo that has a power rating around that for the one 8 ohm cabinet or the 8 ohm load in the combo. And then I would think you may need up toward 250 to 300 watts for larger places and/or louder drummers (medium power combo with an external cab) so look for amps that have that power into 4 ohms.

Look at the specs on the Gallien-Krueger 400RB, 700RB, and 1001RB. Look at what power they provide into an 8 ohm load, and then into a 4 ohm load.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The 400RB is 280W@4ohm, 180W@8ohm which is around where I think you need to be looking.

Then think about getting mabe two 112 cabinets, at 8 ohms each, and use one for practice and smaller venues and two for larger places and louder drummers. Way easier to get in and out of a sedan than a combo were you have to deal with the weight and bulk of the amp along with the speaker cabinet.

(After thinking about it I edited the below to say 112 instead of previously stating 210.)

Look at the Avatar 112. Look at the weight and dimensions and compare that to the other stuff you look at.

http://avatarspeakers.com/sB112.htm

Here is another thought, a Eden Nemesis Combo:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And some more SWR Workingpro ideas (the older combos were called workingman):

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351611

I just saw this thread with some nice pictures of some pretty nice high end 112 stacked systems:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348807
.

Jim Powers said:

I have two Ampeg combos, each are 220W, a BA115HP and a BA210. One is plenty for practice, particularly for blues and jazz; my band plays classic blues and rock and the guitarists use 2-12 Mesa amps. I use both combos, one on each side of the drummer, for the stage. The reality is, for the venues we've played, I haven't needed to push them hard, even outside. We run lines out or mics for all our amps through the soundboard to the PA to balance the sound, so the amps aren't doing all the work. Bottom line is for the genre and smaller to mid size venues you foresee, a high powered combo should be fine. All that being said, I continue to crave an Ampeg stack rig; I guess I'm just from the old school!

Click to expand...

Hey Jim,
What method of connecting both amps have worked out best for your dual Ampegs? (ABY-box / FX-line out)

I used to successfully gig my pair of Ampeg B-100R amps (both with an AYB-pedal and line-out --- stacked or placed-side by side) , But I ran into strange low-frequency cancellation problems with running my identical combos on either side of the drummer. (only on some stages and rooms)

I'd guess the fact that your two amps/speakers are different from each other would help this situation a bunch.
Have you noticed any of this sound cancellation when you place your combos split-stage?

I've been told that anything with less then 300 watts won't work...

Click to expand...

Everyone please note that the original poster of this thread is talking about playing blues and jazz in small venues.

If you were talking about playing rock in a loud band or playing in a working cover band in medium sized venues or outside without pa support the above quoted advice would in fact apply.

timmbass said:

The 400RB is 280W@4ohm, 180W@8ohm which is around where I think you need to be looking.

Then think about getting mabe two 210 cabinets, at 8 ohms each, and use one for practice and smaller venues and two for larger places and louder drummers. Way easier to get in and out of a sedan than a combo were you have to deal with the weight and bulk of the amp along with the speaker cabinet.

Look at the Avatar 210. Look at the weight and dimensions and compare that to the other stuff you look at.

http://avatarspeakers.com/B210 NEO.htm

Here is another thought, a Eden Nemesis Combo:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. A good 2x10 cab should cover you for at least 80%-90% of the gigs you normally play. The Avatar is well-regarded and very reasonably-priced. And from what I gather, its warm voicing is very compatible with blues & jazz. Get one in 8 ohms, then pick up another in 8 ohms later for when you need to play larger venues.

I own both the Nemesis 2x10 combo and the Nemesis 4x10 combo. Either would be ideal for what you're playing. Though the 4x10 may be a little bulky, it'll be all you'll need for a long time to come. A few months ago, I played a low volume pop jazz gig with the Nemesis 2x10, and it was perfect: deep, warm, clean & articulate. If you go Nemesis, look on the aftermarket for an older one made between 1996 - 2000.

As far as a head is concerned, it doesn't hurt to get something with more power, say 300-600 watts - not because you need the extra volume (you don't), but for the additional headroom. But big power is not essential. Again, shop carefully on the aftermarket for a unit that's been well cared-for. That'll offer the best bang for your bucks.

Don't worry - you're on the right track....

MM

timmbass said:

Everyone please note that the original poster of this thread is talking about playing blues and jazz in small venues.

If you were talking about playing rock in a loud band or playing in a working cover band in medium sized venues or outside without pa support the above quoted advice would in fact apply.

Click to expand...

EXACTLY!

The only time I would ever need 300+ watts would be on an outdoor gig with no P/A support.

I think most people here wildly exagerate the amount of power needed. I gig with a LOUD rock/punk band with either a 100 watt Tube Powered Sunn, or a 275 Watt S/S Ampeg @8 ohms. with either a 2x10 or a 1x15, and once in a great while a 1x12. That's way more than enough to be heard over an EXTREEMLY loud Punk Rock Drummer on stage. Sound guys still have me turn down all the time. You could probly do a bues/jazz gig with a quiet drummer in a small room (30 people you say?) with a 75 Watt combo with power in reserve. I"d still recomend a small head like the G/K with a smallish cab for portablility sake.

With modern P/A sound reinforcement, and monitors, there really is no need for these big powered amps, unless you need and ULTRA clean sound with TONS of headroom. Some guys DO actually need that much power for that kind of tone/sound. Not really the type of sound youd want on a blues gig IMO.

So far, this is all very sound advice. I think a combo amp in the 200 watt range, with capabilities to add an extension spkr and up the wattage a bit, would be a good starting point. As mentioned above, the SWR Workingmans 12 or 15 are great sounding SS amps, but if you want some tube flavor, the Ampegs mentioned above have a single 12AX7 in the preamp. I would add to the list a Mesa Walkabout Scout, which has a four stage tube preamp, and alot of high end features, including one of the best ever EQ controls. It's a bit pricey, but it would serve you well, and the amp is removeable from it's combo box, and can run 2 8 ohm cabs of you choice. 300 watts, lots o headroom, tons of warm fuzzy tone, and lightweight. Have fun in the quest.

skipster619 said:

How does a total rookie at this figure out which, if ANY, of these will do the job?

Click to expand...

You do what you did. Now you have some specific information to be searching for around here.

Like for example search for [workingman walkabout] and you will get a list of threads on combos like those.

Read some more. Then ask more questions.

I use an Ampeg B100R (100w) for pratice and small venues (like the ones you're refering too in your post) without any problem. I bought it used and it gives me everything I want.

For larger venues and mainly big gigs on a huge stage in a rock setting, I use my GBE750 head and it's way.... too loud I just sold my Eden WT400 (350w) and it was more than enough to cover all my needs.

I would suggest a small combo to start with. If you get gigs that requests more volume, you could always get a second cab. Unless you have big career plans (or loads of cash), then get a bigger rig that you won't be able to benefit from without getting pissed looks from your bandmates.

2,400 watts and an Ampeg SVT810E.

I've only been playing bass with bands for the last 12 months and this is exactly the problem I came up against when I switched from guitar.

I was very lucky to go out to the local music shop and find a Hartke Kickback 15 for 300 pounds (UK) which, for a rating of 120 watts, really throws out more sound than should be possible for a (relatively) small amp. I've heard loads of other combos around the 100 watt mark which really struggle next to a drum kit but the Hartke very rarely gets above 6! Maybe it's the aluminium cones? I know that many guitar speakers are deceptively loud compared to others and can make a huge difference in decibel level even if the amp is the same.

I then went out and bought a Behringer Ultrabass BX4500H head and a Hartke 410 transporter cab which obviously gives out more power and can fill larger venues with low end sound and thought that I'd use the Kickback combo for practice and the head & cab for gigs.

What has actually happened though, is that I use the head & cab for practice and for smaller gigs and the head, cab and combo (bi-amped) for anything larger. This is entirely down to tone. For me, it's all about tone. If you think that you sound good, you will play better to respond to that sound which in turn will make you sound better and will then make you play better! It's a spiral that can either give you confidence or knock you down.

Worry more about tone and speak to and listen to other bassists around you to get a feel of what you're really after.

I can't read the price but that rig would probably be great for you. Gallien Kruger 400RB is rated at 280 watts into 4 ohms and their 280 sounds like other brand's 400.
You could gig many different size venues with that.

I've been using a SVP-Pre-QSC Plx 1202 - Accugroove ElWhappo Jr. And the sound is to die for. However, the amp is heavy and the cab is a bit bulky especially in a road case. As of late I've been using a Yorkville BS400T 2x10 combo about 250 watts. It's enough for all but the biggest gigs. For them I add a Hartke 1x15 XL I've had for years. This lowers the overall ohms to 4 and boosts the power to 400 watts. 1x15-2x10 and 400 watts. More than enough

anderbass said:

Hey Jim,
What method of connecting both amps have worked out best for your dual Ampegs? (ABY-box / FX-line out)

I used to successfully gig my pair of Ampeg B-100R amps (both with an AYB-pedal and line-out --- stacked or placed-side by side) , But I ran into strange low-frequency cancellation problems with running my identical combos on either side of the drummer. (only on some stages and rooms)

I'd guess the fact that your two amps/speakers are different from each other would help this situation a bunch.
Have you noticed any of this sound cancellation when you place your combos split-stage?

Click to expand...

I run them through a Whirlwind Selector A/B/Y floor switch, which has silent switching and works well to silence the amps for tuning and breaks. I should be using something with an isolation transformer but instead use a ground lift on one of the amp's power plugs to eliminate ground loop hum. I haven't had problems with cancellation yet; maybe because of the substantial difference between the 1-15 and 2-10s but it may just be luck. Also, I've read that polarity has something to do with cancellation, particularly relative to PA systems. For identical amps this would be a problem if the speakers are moving 180 degrees out of phase (ones moving in when the other is moving out = wave cancellation). This could be the case in some venues if the amps are plugged into separate power outlets with different polarity. Older amps had a polarity switch, but these days there would probably be a gadget to reconcile it, or just bring extension cords to ensure they come off the same power supply.