3- If the construction and thickness of the string is the same there will be zero difference in sound.
4- The same thickness and construction of string at the same length and tuning will have the same tension.
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Did They Ever Make A Shortscale That...
- Thread starter ZenG
- Start date
3- If the construction and thickness of the string is the same there will be zero difference in sound.
4- The same thickness and construction of string at the same length and tuning will have the same tension.
So if you mod the short to take a complete long scale string ...and the longscale string on the short is now exactly as it would have been on the long (thanks to a changed anchor point)...then the tension on that string is the same as if you hadn't done anything at all and just put a shortscale string on?
Viola basses and other Hofner type designs work pretty well with long scale strings if they have the trapeze style tailpiece.
Lots of people cut longscale strings to fit lesser-length basses.
But if it was no problem doing this......then they wouldn't be making all these different strings in different winding lengths would they.
It would just be "one size fits all".
They make them the way they do for a reason.
But if it was no problem doing this......then they wouldn't be making all these different strings in different winding lengths would they.
It would just be "one size fits all".
They make them the way they do for a reason.
30 inches of .100 metal between the bridge and nut takes the same lbs of pull from the tuner to make an E whether there is 1" or 10" or 100" of string between the bridge saddle and the tailpiece.
(6) I am NOT talking about whether or not it's ok to cut longscale strings for use on a short.
I still don't get it. A string is a string, you have a center core string, and some number of wrappings. A string with the same size internal core string and amount of winding should be functionally identical.
I cut long strings all the time to fit smaller scale basses. One short bass I have I use the B string from a five string set for the E string to get the proper tension, but it's from a long scale set.
I still don't get it. A string is a string, you have a center core string, and some number of wrappings. A string with the same size internal core string and amount of winding should be functionally identical.
I cut long strings all the time to fit smaller scale basses. One short bass I have I use the B string from a five string set for the E string to get the proper tension, but it's from a long scale set.
Well, yes and no. The actual tension in the string is the same. The tension is determined by the scale length (the distance between the bridge saddle and the nut), the gauge/construction of the string, and the note that it is tuned to. Adding extra length at either end, between the saddle and the anchor point/tailpiece, or between the nut and the tuner, does not change the tension of the string.
However, adding that extra length at either end does change the sound and feel of the string. It's a factor I call the "snap" of the string, which is often confused with the tension. It works like this: When you pull sideways on the string, as you are plucking it, the string is stretching like a long spring. Then you release it, and it snaps back to straight, overshoots it, and goes into the back and forth oscillation.
When you add extra length to the string at either end, you are making that spring longer. So, you have to pull it farther sideways to get the same feel on your fingertip, because the string stretches easier.
For example, suppose you have two basses, same scale length, same string, tuned to the same note. One has the standard short distance between the bridge saddle and the anchor point. The other has an extra 3" of length back to the anchor point. Again, the actual tension in both strings will be the same.
But, if you pull the string sideways with a force of, say, 1 pound on your fingertip, there will be a difference. With the extended string, you have to pull the string a longer distance to the side to reach that 1 pound load. It's because there's more length of string to stretch.
Now, when you release the strings of these two basses, the extended string has a longer distance to travel to get back to center. The physics of it is that they will both accelerate at the same rate, because the tension is the same. The extended string will take longer to reach center, but it crosses over center at higher velocity and goes farther to the other side before rebounding. This is the effect that I call "snap". Increasing the overall length of the string increases the snap, regardless of the scale length.
How does this affect the sound? Increasing the snap mainly changes the attack curve of the note. It increases the pulse at the beginning of the note, which is why I call it snap. Think of the percussive sound of upright basses. They have a huge amount of snap because of the very long overall string length. The increased pulse can be heard through the amp, and also unplugged.
The funny thing about increasing the snap is that players will describe it in opposite ways. Some will say that the tension is higher, because they hear that extra pop on the note. Others will say that the tension is lower, because the string feels softer to their fingertip. But actually, the tension is exactly the same.
It's the same factor in all those long arguments about reverse headstocks, and how increasing the length between the nut and the tuner of the B string will increase the "tension" of the string to improve the sound, etc. It doesn't actually increase the tension, but it increases the snap. Which may make the B string sound more like the other strings.
Anyway, that's why we do it. Increasing the overall string length to increase the snap is most effective on instruments that are made to be plucked hard in an upright-like style. If you play with a light touch and low action, then you probably wouldn't notice the difference.
1stnamebassist and GIbrat51 pointed out my SSB line as an example of this design feature. It's 30 1/2" scale length, but uses standard Fender-length 34" scale strings. I fit in all the extra string length with both a long headstock and a real long distance back to the tailpieces. I designed the bass that way primarily to get that extra percussive snappy sound.
Being able to use standard length strings is an extra benefit, but it wasn't the main reason I did it.
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Yes. The Harmony H-22 has a tailpiece right on the end of the body, so it is a short-scale bass that uses regular long scale strings.
I had a set of TI Jazz Flats JF344 on my mid '90s CIJ Mustang Bass, they worked quite well on it.
View attachment 778355
In fact, they sounded superb on that bass.
Now La Bella makes flats specifically for the Mustang Bass. Normal short scale strings don't fit a Mustang Bass because the strings are mounted through body.
Just a thought but if you take a shortscale bass and had room to move the bridge back to take long scale strings without cutting them, wouldn't that throw the intonation all to HE double hockey stick? I mean to the point where you would have to shift the neck forward or back to fix it? Or relocate the frets with proper spacing or something? Never done it so I would like to here from someone with more experience with such things.
Indeed it is true - scale length is the measurement from nut to bridge, so if you increase that distance you increase the scale length, which needs wider fret spacing for proper tuning up the neck.
That's why the examples such as iiipopes' above don't have the bridge moved back, but the tailbar/stopbar/tailpiece that anchors the strings behind the bridge.
I cut down long scale strings for short scales on occasion, I know it's supposed to cause trouble wrapping "real string" around the tuners, but honestly, it has rarely, if ever, caused me any problems. YMMV, but in my book, any short scale bass is "designed" to take long scale strings, it's the other direction that's more problematic.
^This. I've done the same despite manufacturer's warnings about not wrapping the "speaking length" of the string around the tuning post. As long as they were properly crimped and I kept it down to a wrap or two, I never had a problem. But that's "going off the reservation" so to speak, so YMMV - and don't blame me if you try it and it doesn't work for you.
Thanks, great post as usual Mr. Johnson! Just an addendum if I may.
Am I correct in pointing out that the above only applies provided that the string is allowed to travel over the bridge saddle and nut? As in: with a steep string-through-body angle and/or, say, a locking nut à la Floyd Rose the string could have a kilometer's worth of afterlength and it wouldn't matter because the speaking length of the string would be effectively isolated from the sections on both ends.
...Right?
Re effects of the winding speed (and/or amount of tensioning of the core) during the manufacturing process determining a tonal difference between strings of otherwise identical construction (same core, same wrap wire), as can be hypotesised by conflating a couple questions raised by @ZenG:
I'd defer to people in the know, like @Jon Moody and @Tim PF.
[I've only read, or so I seem to recall, that the winding process partly determines the minimum tension at which the string can function with a decently stable pitch envelope post-attack (of reasonably "normal" force) and at fretting - or, as me and others say, below "sproing point".]
I'd defer to people in the know, like @Jon Moody and @Tim PF.
[I've only read, or so I seem to recall, that the winding process partly determines the minimum tension at which the string can function with a decently stable pitch envelope post-attack (of reasonably "normal" force) and at fretting - or, as me and others say, below "sproing point".]
Thanks, great post as usual Mr. Johnson! Just an addendum if I may.
Am I correct in pointing out that the above only applies provided that the string is allowed to travel over the bridge saddle and nut? As in: with a steep string-through-body angle and/or, say, a locking nut à la Floyd Rose the string could have a kilometer's worth of afterlength and it wouldn't matter because the speaking length of the string would be effectively isolated from the sections on both ends.
...Right?
Yes, for a Floyd Rose style locking nut. The string is tightly clamped, and the nut becomes the new anchor point. The string out to the tuner won't stretch.
No, for string through bridges. The section of string from the ball end up through the body and over the saddle will still stretch. The distance that the string moves over the saddle, when you pull the string sideways, is very small, on the order of 0.005". It will move that much around the saddle, even over a steep angle.
Someone will probably ask if going to a string-through bridge will increase the "snap" that we've been talking about here. Theoretically yes, but it will only be a small amount. You are only increasing the overall string length by about an inch, out of about 38 inches. Maybe 4%.
In the example of my SSB basses, adding the extra length back to the tailpieces and at the headstock, I increased the overall length by about 12%. That's noticeable.
