Bass balance

Measure it!

I use a rolling pin and a big counter. Lay the bass strings-down on the rolling pin so the pin is parallel to the frets. Move the bass for/aft until you find the point where it balances. Make note of the fret position.

Then take a look at the strap button locations. The closer the balance position is to the the midpoint between the buttons the more balanced the bass will be on the strap.

My basses all balance at the 21st or 22nd fret and with upper horns that reach the 12th fret they balance perfectly on the strap.

Get your rolling pin out and measure it. Then report back here.

stevensivak said:

Since I am a lefty who does not get to hold other left handed basses, I wonder if there are basses that are balanced from the strap and not the knee and visa versa.... In other words if you have or the other does that imply the other?

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As to sitting vs standing, the lower waist cutout on most basses is positioned to make the bass look good, not to make them work well when sitting. Put that cutout on your leg and you have lots of neck dive. But since you're sitting, you can lean it it with your body plucking harm and pin it in place. So it works.

Basses that feel good in your lap can be terrible neck-divers (looking at you, Warwick Thumb). For me, balance is determined by the bass remaining in angled playing position on a strap while standing. The weight is on the shoulder, not the fretting hand.

Thumpin6string said:

Balance is when the builder built it correctly. If a bass has neck dive, it wasn't done right.

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I've seen Thunderbird owners on here claim their basses don't neck dive and I... ok buddy

I don't really pay attention to be honest. I always play with a strap sitting or standing. On my heavier basses it's a wide leather strap that usually grips my shoulder pretty good so its not sliding around.

Pings Bass said:

I've seen Thunderbird owners on here claim their basses don't neck dive and I... ok buddy

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Then it must have been designed correctly.

darwin-bass said:

Measure it!

I use a rolling pin and a big counter. Lay the bass strings-down on the rolling pin so the pin is parallel to the frets. Move the bass for/aft until you find the point where it balances. Make note of the fret position.

Then take a look at the strap button locations. The closer the balance position is to the the midpoint between the buttons the more balanced the bass will be on the strap.

My basses all balance at the 21st or 22nd fret and with upper horns that reach the 12th fret they balance perfectly on the strap.

Get your rolling pin out and measure it. Then report back here.

Click to expand...

Why would you bother meassuring the center of gravity instead of just putting a strap on the bass and find out if it dives or not?


Anyway. I don't think there are many basses that can balance when resting with the waist on your leg. You'd need a massive lower bout to counter the lever action of the neck and the rest of the body combined.

When talking about neck-dive and that sort i always assumed that was when you were standing, with your strap & bass in a position you like - and when you let go if the headstock goes down thats the neck dive.

I've never considered balance while sitting, i guess because in addition to on my knee to balance, i also hug the body in between my chest/belly and elbow/forearm

KidAmnesia said:

Why would you bother meassuring the center of gravity instead of just putting a strap on the bass and find out if it dives or not?

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I was making changes to some of my instruments (new necks, new tuners) and wanted to see how the mods affected the CG.

Numbers are less subjective and easier to share in a meaningful way via the internet. If I say the bass is light that's fine. If I say it weight 6.8 lbs that is less subjective and someone else can weigh their own bass (7.7) lbs and better understand my statement in light of their reality.

If I say a bass doesn't dive that's fine. If I say the CG is 7" back from the front strap button that is more clear. Someone else can measure their own instrument and compare it with mine and have a better understanding of what I'm experiencing.

Pings Bass said:

I've seen Thunderbird owners on here claim their basses don't neck dive and I... ok buddy

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Well, speaking as the owner of 3 Thunderbirds - 2 Gibsons and a Tokai TB48 - My experience is... yes and no. We're all different, and part of my experience may be due to me just being built the way I am. But, my 2 Rickenbackers (often branded as bad neck divers), when on my shoulder - and held in my preferred playing position ( slung just at waist level, neck up at about a 15 degree angle)? They don't want to dive - at all. But, parallel to the floor - yes, they would most definitely like to... I play my T-Birds the same way lots of T-Bird owners do; slung low, with the neck at about a 45-50 degree angle. Played like that, mine don't want to dive at all. The upper frets are much easier to reach that way, too... I figured out many years ago, that you can't play every bass like your P-Bass, without some problems...

darwin-bass said:

.... The closer the balance position is to the the midpoint between the buttons the more balanced the bass will be on the strap....

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Bingo. And if the bass is neck-divey moving the back button up also moves it forward (usually) thus moving the balance point forward, maybe enough to counteract the dive. In a couple of basses I've also super-glued a couple or three one ounce lead fishing weights to the back end of the control cavity.

stevensivak said:

Since I am a lefty who does not get to hold other left handed basses, I wonder if there are basses that are balanced from the strap and not the knee and visa versa.... In other words if you have or the other does that imply the other?

Click to expand...

I'm a lefty, too, but aside from owning about two dozen basses that are very different from one another - and, both long and short scales, I'd have to say...
Sometimes balancing from a strap, and balancing on your knee (or from whatever, that isn't a strap) is mostly the same - and sometimes, it isn't. It depends on the bass itself, and also on where the strap pins - mostly the front one - are. The balance point on my Carvin LB-20, for example, is about the same as the "balance point" on my shoulder, when it's on a strap. It's probably because the front strap pin is way out on the upper horn - and close to the 12th fret. On the other hand, my Danelectro Longhorn did not hang from the same balance point that it did when on my knee. Because the front strap pin was located on the back of the neck, just where it joined the body. It was actually kind of a neck diver. However... when I moved that strap pin out and forward on to the end of the upper "horn"? Very nicely balanced - and no more neck dive. I've never bothered to check if the hanging point and the balance point are the same, but... I'd bet a dollar to a donut, that they're pretty close. So, it just depends on the bass - and where the strap pins are...

stevensivak said:

So is it fair to say that most if not all basses do not balance on the knee and when standing we ideally would like the instrument when put level (horizontal) that it will remain there without the use of that big old suede/grippy 4" strap. If the strap is resisting movement and that is "acceptable" then there is no such thing as neck dive. Perhaps that is why many say they never consider the issue of neck dive but instead overall wight?

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I think that is fair.

I submit there are two different terms we should use.

• Neck dive - The neck actually moves. Won't stay put. You have to support it with your fretting hand.
• Neck heaviness - The weight is mostly on your left shoulder (right hand player) even if the neck doesn't move.

A grippy strap can "solve" neck dive but not neck heaviness.

Solving neck heaviness also solves neck dive.

My Ibanez BTB676 balances naturally.
The upper horn reaches the twelfth fret.
An easy solution that many builders ignore.

Ibanez got it right.





Neck dive while sitting is not an issue because I use a strap and classical position for all basses.

stevensivak said:

Is putting an unstrapped bass across one's knee and letting go, the means by which balance is viewed? Or is it when hung from the strap points with a "frictionless" strap the means by which balance is determined?

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As commonly intended, the latter.

Smallmouth_Bass said:

Seated tends to have more neck dive that standing. I evaluate the balance while being strapped on standing. If it does well there, any minor neck dive while being seated is manageable.

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darwin-bass said:

As to sitting vs standing, the lower waist cutout on most basses is positioned to make the bass look good, not to make them work well when sitting. Put that cutout on your leg and you have lots of neck dive. But since you're sitting, you can lean it it with your body plucking harm and pin it in place. So it works.

Click to expand...

KidAmnesia said:

I don't think there are many basses that can balance when resting with the waist on your leg. You'd need a massive lower bout to counter the lever action of the neck and the rest of the body combined.

Click to expand...

^ These.
I'm not saying they don't exist, but I do believe you'd be hard-pressed to find electric basses that balance well seated: as said, the leg cutout is markedly less frontward than the front strap button.
_____

Pings Bass said:

I've seen Thunderbird owners on here claim their basses don't neck dive and I... ok buddy

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I've seen *pictures* of them:


Gibson neck dive....not my Gibsons


Many Just Don't Get IT, Gibson Thunderbird

[The former poster even made a point of taking the pic with a slippery nylon strap, since other replies weren't above suggesting his earlier ones were doctored through his use of a grippy strap.]
So there are exceptions to every rule.