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Short scale bass in development

I wanted to start this post since I am looking for feedback into an instrument that I've been working on for almost 2 years for the purpose of future design direction. A brief history- I started thinking about the project in late 2004. The concept was a baritone ukulele sized bass with the goal of having a small light instrument that still achieved a full natural bass tone. It is built as an acoustic-electric with emphasis on the electric part due to the small volume of the sound box. The initial proto was done using nylon 'weedwacker' line or nylon harp strings and was tuned E-A-D-G. The sound produced by the nylon was very natural, but one octave higher than an acoustic double bass due to the limitations of the low mass and high stiffness of the nylon. The first few basses I built were done with the nylon strings.

The next step in development was to find a material that will achieve the desired sustain in the correct bass octave while still feeling comfortable to play. I ruled out the Ashbory silicone strings since they did not have a good feel and the G strings had a propensity to early breakage. I worked with a supplier of synthetic elastomers to come up with a polyurethane string configuration that worked with proper E-A-D-G bass tuning that fit the 20" scale that I'm using. The bass works very well and the acoustic/electric style aids in the natural woody tone.

The initial response from the ukulele community (OK, I'm a uke builder) has been quite favorable, but this is really a short scale bass, so I'm addressing my product development questions to the bassists out there.

Now here's the part where I'm looking for additional feedback. Would a 5 string low B version be something bass players would want in such a short scale instrument? With string diameters up to .25", the nut width would need to be about 2.1" to 2.2" and the fingerboard would be about 2.6" to 2.7" at the 12th fret to have adequate playing room for all styles. By comparison, the 4 string version will be about 1.7" wide at the nut and about 2.2" wide at the 12th fret (actually up from about 1.9" based on player feedback of wanting more room on the fingerboard). The other thing is string action. Some people like a low action and play with a soft touch. Others like the slap and pop on the fingerboard. Since I think that a height adjustable would take away from the tone, my thought is to do 2 different height saddles and include both with the unit. These could be easily replaced simply by just pulling the old saddle from the bridge slot and popping the alternate in. Last question is on fingerboard radius. I'm using about a 15" radius. Would more radius be better given the above mentioned fingerboard widths?

Many advance mahalos,

Owen Holt
http://www.bassuke.com
 
For me a 20" scale bass with a .25" low B string would be of no use. I would have to assume that not only would it sound totally different than an electric bass at 34"+ with stainless steel strings, but that it would feel incredibly different, due both to the short scale length and the ultra thick strings. Also, I think that the lack of adjustability in the bridge would be a turn off to a lot of people.

Maybe someone would find great use in it, but I wouldn't be one of them. I'm not really certain what the intended application of this instument or what the intended benefit of it is. Without an obvious benefit it will be tough to get people to convert.

Good luck on the project!
 
Thanks Geoff, I appreciate your feedback- you're right that the sound and the feel would be very different than a typical EBG. If you've ever touched an Guild/DeArmond/Fendor Ashbory bass, it uses an elastomeric silicone string.The polyurethane I use is a bit harder, so tension is a little higher. Also, it doesn't have the sticky feel of the silicone. Sound is more like an upright double bass than an EBG. Right know, I'm debating whether or not doing a 5 string is overkill, so that's the purpose of the post.
 
I really believe you're already going to have a hard enough time getting all the parameters right with a 4 string. Adding that B is a quantum leap that will probably not yield good results.

I think you should stick with a 4 string design.

How about some pics?
 
SBassman, I worked out the 4 stringer so that the strings all have a very similar tension feel. I did a preliminary mock up 4 stringer with the Low B, but left off the G string (BEAD). The only thing I don't like is that the B string tension is a little looser than the other strings. The 3 options I have is going bigger or harder or having one string a little looser than the others. I'll most likely stay with the 4's unless there really seems to be an interest in a 5.

Here's a couple instrument pics which include the octave higher nylon string versions:

http://www.bassuke.com/Gallery.html
 
I just checked out the website.
Very, very impressive. I wish you the best with this.

As far as the 5's, I Do think you're going to get people expressing interest, but I think they are going to lead you down a disappointing road - both for you and the customer. Just my guess. B's are often sloppy even on larger scale instruments - I just don't know how you're going to break the laws of physics with that one. :)

I think you should post some sound clips on the website and here.

Again, wishing you the best with this. Looks really intriguing.

:cool:
 
Taking a second look ...

- I really like the string through bridges

- I like the head of this

http://www.bassuke.com/images/010BB_070105_med.JPG

- and the body and neck of this

http://www.bassuke.com/Gallery_folder/024BB.html

Ok, my design suggestion: :)

In addition to the short design, do a 34" scale design, with:

- The head I cited
- The body I cited
- String through bridge
- 34" scale, with overall length still shorter than typical
by moving the bridge to the very end of the body.
- With that shift, you'll probably need a cutaway, in which case maybe it's no longer strictly speaking a Uke design. :)

Anyway, bottom line:

The small body is cool and interesting and will probably yield interesting tones plugged in. There May be a market for a small body acoustic bass which has an overall shorter length via the suggestion above. You want to search for a couple of niches. Your uke short scale design is definitely one, but you should seek a second design to embrace the legions of people who would only consider a 34" scale.

Can't wait to hear it.
 
I appreciate all the feedback. I will most likely stay with short scale stuff. I guess being a ukulele guy has corrupted me to only think small though I've been asked on more than one occasion to build a guitarron. I'm not sure that I want to attempt a 34" scale uke (hollow) bodied instrument. I suppose nylon tape wounds on a fretless fingerboard could be interesting, but I would be dealing with tensions greater than that little soundboard could take. I am considering a semi-hollow version that is less uke like and would look more like a small EBG while retaining some acoustic properties. Scale length may stretch to the 22 to 24" range while retaining a smaller uke sized body. Semi hollow would simplify construction and allow for some additional body shapes. The niche that I'm shooting for is a portable double bass replacement (soundwise), though nothing that you would ever take a bow to.

Also, for those interested, I added an mp3 sound clip care of Uke Jackson. The instrument is the double hole all koa one on my site. It should give you an idea of the tone:

http://www.bassuke.com/Main.html

Owen
 
Here's the results of the 5 string experiment...

http://www.roadtoadmusic.com/Completed/Semi-hollow_bass_proto.html

The one problem that I ran into is that going from a 20.16" scale to a 22.63" scale really had an impact on the strings. I found tension almost doubled on the G. I also needed to change sizes for the D. The E and A were more forgiving. The low B worked well, but I don't like the feel of the softer string needed to vibrate in that low frequency. Too much like those silicone ashbory noodles. If incorporated into a production bass, I would most likely shorten the scale by 1" to 1-1/2" to accommodate the strings.

Far more positives than negatives. Portable, great tone, simpler construction.

Thank you for those who chimed in.

5_string_bass_front.jpg


Owen
 
I agree on the tension thing... better to have even tension on the strings. If I stayed with the 22.6" scale, I would need to replace the G. That's why a 21" scale would work better. My problem with the B is that my two options are going harder, or bigger. In both cases, getting these to fit in tuning machines is an issue. If I want to do the low B, I need to increase scale to around 23" to 24" scale to pull it off. I can always tweak the E-A-D-G diameters to fit that scale.
 
Road_Toad said:
Here's the results of the 5 string experiment...

http://www.roadtoadmusic.com/Completed/Semi-hollow_bass_proto.html

The one problem that I ran into is that going from a 20.16" scale to a 22.63" scale really had an impact on the strings. I found tension almost doubled on the G. I also needed to change sizes for the D. The E and A were more forgiving. The low B worked well, but I don't like the feel of the softer string needed to vibrate in that low frequency. Too much like those silicone ashbory noodles. If incorporated into a production bass, I would most likely shorten the scale by 1" to 1-1/2" to accommodate the strings.

Far more positives than negatives. Portable, great tone, simpler construction.

Thank you for those who chimed in.

5_string_bass_front.jpg


Owen

That's really beautiful.
 
Road_Toad said:
I appreciate all the feedback. I will most likely stay with short scale stuff. I guess being a ukulele guy has corrupted me to only think small though I've been asked on more than one occasion to build a guitarron. I'm not sure that I want to attempt a 34" scale uke (hollow) bodied instrument. I suppose nylon tape wounds on a fretless fingerboard could be interesting, but I would be dealing with tensions greater than that little soundboard could take. I am considering a semi-hollow version that is less uke like and would look more like a small EBG while retaining some acoustic properties. Scale length may stretch to the 22 to 24" range while retaining a smaller uke sized body. Semi hollow would simplify construction and allow for some additional body shapes. The niche that I'm shooting for is a portable double bass replacement (soundwise), though nothing that you would ever take a bow to.

Also, for those interested, I added an mp3 sound clip care of Uke Jackson. The instrument is the double hole all koa one on my site. It should give you an idea of the tone:

http://www.bassuke.com/Main.html

Owen

Could you append a direct link to a picture of the bass you used in the MP3? I'm not finding it. Thanks.