I'll have a student next year who has used the 1,3,4 left hand technique(Italian style) for a while and I am trying to decide if I should have him change. I'm aware of some of the good and less good aspects but it's a legit method used by many great players. Do any of you teachers have an opinion or experience with this situation or the technique in general? I'm mainly concerned with any fourth finger strength issues and don't want any hand problems down the road. Thanks in advance.
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Double Bass 1-2-4? 1-3-4?
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
Your question evokes more questions.
How long has he been playing this way? Does he do well with it? How does he feel about changing? What has he come to you to learn/improve?
How long has he been playing this way? Does he do well with it? How does he feel about changing? What has he come to you to learn/improve?
To answer your questions: yes, from what I understand the third finger takes the place of the second and is supported by the second. One advantage I can see is that the player can be less concerned about keeping the half-step distance between the first and second fingers. My concern is that the fourth finger could have less support. As far as I know, this student has played this way for at least a few years and seems okay with it. He has come to me for general instruction and improvement. I don't know if he would object to changing but probably would do what I suggest. I'm tempted to let it go for a while and see how it goes. One of the issues the internet has brought us teachers IMO is that students can see great players whose technique from a "correctness" standpoint is less than perfect and the student sees this. Trying to explain why it can work for them but not necessarily for the student can be frustrating. The 1,3,4 is at least an accepted technique. Suggestions are welcome.
Personally, as long as I didn't observe any way in which the Italian fingering was holding him back or causing him problems (not sure why it would?), I wouldn't mess with it. I would see it as an opportunity to learn from a student, as I have not observed that fingering in person much. I'm sure you have plenty of other things that you would like to work with him on; I wouldn't waste my time on "correcting" sound technique to match my own.
That's pretty much my thinking, too. I want to make sure he doesn't have any hand issues, but so far he seems okay. I'll be working with him more next year, so it will be something new and interesting.
Did they properly study with a teacher that way and go through Billie? If so, you could leave it. You could also ask them. I hurt my left middle finger years a go and worked out of Billie for a month. I switched back without issue and I can also play that way without issue now.
You could also check it out yourself. The less good aspects are fiction. Have you ever heard anyone say, "that Italian bass player sounded like $*!+"?
You could also check it out yourself. The less good aspects are fiction. Have you ever heard anyone say, "that Italian bass player sounded like $*!+"?
These are things I don't know and have to find out. I have studied Bille myself but never adopted the fingering. I'll get the book out and see what could apply- good reminder. I need to be cautious because so many students come to me with whatever previous(or lack of) instruction and can have any number of issues that need to be dealt with. This may work out fine and be a good learning experience, but I won't know until I see the student.
The logic of 134 seems kinda weak to me - with 124 you use the two strongest fingers and then combine the two weakest fingers. Also, at least with my hands, the half step stretch between 1 and 2 is a lot easier to make than a half step stretch between 3 and 4. That said, unless the technique is hurting the student, since it IS a well recognized method, it's probably best to leave it alone.
Just a thought...
Srsly - you'll know within a few seconds of hearing & seeing this student's LH.
IMFO, of course.
Grazie!
And that logic goes right out the window when you are confronted with literally centuries of incredible Italian bassists. It is a much more relaxed hand position in the low register. Mark Dresser studied that way he doesn't always use it. Ron McClure plays that way. He is as great as any jazz bassist.
The proof is in the tiramisu.
Same. I dislocated a tendon on the left middle finger years ago and had to wear a splint on it during a busy giggling season. Used 3 instead. It was fine.
Thanks for all the responses. This is a main reason why I like TB. Also, I found my Bille books. It is a great method and reminded me I need to brush up on my transposition for opera singers. What other method has that?
I don't have any proof, but I suspect the best choice could vary with the player's hand physiology. What is best for the student?
I don't really buy into the 4th finger is weak and needs help from 3. Just did an experiment. With 1,2,4 the biggest stretch feels like it is between 1 and 2. With 1,3,4, the biggest stretch feels like it is between 3 and 4, The angle of my hand/wrist rotates a bit to cover the stretch. I have always used 1,2,4 on upright, and 1,3,4 does not feel any weaker or stressful on my hand. In fact it felt strong and comfortable.
If I try to wiggle my fingers independently, it seems different motions activate different interlinkages. Overall the strongest and most common interlinkages seems to be between 2 and 3; suggesting potential merit for 1,3,4.
The scale of the instrument is also a factor. I use something resembling one finger per fret on bass guitar. My observation is I use 1,2,3 much more than 1,2,3,4. Also 2,3,4 seems noticeably weaker than 1,2,3. So 2,3,4 is my least preferred option. In order to cover the reach with 2,3,4, it seems like I have to spread my fingers as if I am playing 1,2,3,4. There are times when I revert to 1,2,4 on bass guitar. Given the scale of bass guitar, covering a half step with 1 to 3 seems too cramped.
These are my observations in regards to how my fingering hand seems to work on my instruments. YMMV.
I don't really buy into the 4th finger is weak and needs help from 3. Just did an experiment. With 1,2,4 the biggest stretch feels like it is between 1 and 2. With 1,3,4, the biggest stretch feels like it is between 3 and 4, The angle of my hand/wrist rotates a bit to cover the stretch. I have always used 1,2,4 on upright, and 1,3,4 does not feel any weaker or stressful on my hand. In fact it felt strong and comfortable.
If I try to wiggle my fingers independently, it seems different motions activate different interlinkages. Overall the strongest and most common interlinkages seems to be between 2 and 3; suggesting potential merit for 1,3,4.
The scale of the instrument is also a factor. I use something resembling one finger per fret on bass guitar. My observation is I use 1,2,3 much more than 1,2,3,4. Also 2,3,4 seems noticeably weaker than 1,2,3. So 2,3,4 is my least preferred option. In order to cover the reach with 2,3,4, it seems like I have to spread my fingers as if I am playing 1,2,3,4. There are times when I revert to 1,2,4 on bass guitar. Given the scale of bass guitar, covering a half step with 1 to 3 seems too cramped.
These are my observations in regards to how my fingering hand seems to work on my instruments. YMMV.
Damon, I have to especially thank you for reminding me of the Bille Method. Aside from being one of the great methods, the flowery English translation in my edition is a joy to read. I think I'm going to frame this quote for my studio wall: (quoting Bottesini)- "The youths who mean to undertake the Double Bass player's career, must be armed with infinite patience and goodwill, for without these virtues it would be useless to begin the long and arduous study of this instrument." - words to live by.
Here’s something you can try that might help you answer the question. Hold your hand out (not too far) in front of you, with your palm facing you. Curl your fingers in toward you until the fingernails are facing you. Have all the fingertips in a line.
A) Now pull up the middle finger out of that line. Put it back.
B) Now pull up the third finger out of that line. Put it back.
Repeat that exercise. Which of A or B is the easier exercise to perform?
I personally find it easier to keep the middle finger out of the line than the ring finger. So if you’re doing 1 3 4 up near the nut, it might be easier to keep your fingers down on the fingerboard than when doing 1 2 4.
I was lucky enough to see Franco Petracchi give a class in 2006 (jfc, that’s so long ago) and, gotta say, it didn’t seem to hold him back at all.
