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Double Bass 1-2-4? 1-3-4?
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
Great if someone could post a video showing someone playing with this technique - something slow enough and video that allowed it to be seen clearly. I'll be honest that I'm not enough of a double bass geek to even know this existed until I read this thread so I'd love to see it in action.
-S-
It's not slow but you can see his hand clearly and it doesn't get much better than this:
It requires a slightly different orientation and inclination of the wrist/forearm compared to 124 to get the half step between 3 and 4, so that might’ve had something to do with it?
I personally feel less comfortable with 3-4 half steps, but I do use the Hal Robinson/Joel Quarrington method of using 1-3 in favor of 1-2 if I don’t have to use my fourth finger. 1-2 isn’t much of a stretch, but I find the compactness of 1-3 to be more comfortable and more reliably in tune until block position.
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All these years later and I'm not convinced anyone's played Per Questa in fourths tuning better than that.
Also, check out how high his left elbow is; you have to approach the fingerboard much closer to a 90 degree angle with the traditional Billé/Mengoli/Caimmi approach.
Earl
Supporting Member
One of the reasons I started this thread was to see if there is thought to be any advantage to changing a basic technique like this once it has been used by the student for a period of time. I've known of teachers who had very strong opinions and would insist on the student using techniques the teacher used. As a mostly self taught player myself, I had to figure out on my own what worked for me and what didn't to a large degree. As a teacher now, I try to figure out what works for each individual student to make the most efficient progress." Will a change like this fingering method help or not?" and similar sorts of questions make it a fascinating job. The fact that most of my students have almost immediate performing obligations must always be considered. It makes for interesting lessons. As always, I appreciate the thoughtful input.
Isn't that a pivot with 1-3-2-4? That is the first four finger concept that makes sense to me.
If y'all are interested and have access Quarrington discusses this exact topic in his segments on Tonebase, and clears up when and why use uses 124 v. 134. He uses both at different times, with and without pivot.
Kinda: if I’m playing a passage in neck position that traditionally would require a 1-2 half step and a) 4 doesn’t immediately come before or after 2 or b) the passage doesn’t require a 2-2 shift, my preference is to play 1-3 instead of 1-2.
It’s not necessarily a pivot since I’m staying within the confines of a major 2nd, although in another sense I’m always pivoting since I use the distance my elbow is to the body of the bass (closer for 1, further for 4) and the angle of my wrist to the neck to change pitches even when I’m not going beyond a major 2nd in a position.
As a highschool student I was always badgered by my teachers to stick to the simandl 124 fingering. Buy my hand naturally wanted to use all 4 fingers. Fast forward about 25 years and I come across Thomas Gale's triangulation method which pretty much nails what I naturally wanted to do my whole life. I guess the important thing is intonation without straining and injury. 
As a highschool student I was always badgered by my teachers to stick to the simandl 124 fingering. Buy my hand naturally wanted to use all 4 fingers. Fast forward about 25 years and I come across Thomas Gale's triangulation method which pretty much nails what I naturally wanted to do my whole life. I guess the important thing is intonation without straining and injury.
You might be interested in Marcos Machado Tao of Bass
Marcos Machado: Tao of Bass, Volume I, The Left Hand
There is an interview on YouTube titled:
Using the Third Finger in ALL Positions? - Interview and demonstration by Marcos Machado
The video is from Discover Double Bass
Hopefully this link will open the video on YouTube: Machado Interview
Sorry but the video shows unavailable when I post a link to view it on TB
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Granted that most of the time we use pivots or extensions it’s to cover 3 diatonic pitches and by using a free hand instead of a structured hand many of the downsides of 1-2-3-4 can be eliminated, but even with a free hand and primarily using forearm rotation to change pitches I still find 2-3 half steps to be the least secure option (because while we don’t want our flexors and extensors to be playing the fingerboard like a typewriter, they are still important for defined pitch changes and LH articulation, and 2 and 3 are the two fingers that share the most tendons, which makes that articulation harder), hence my preference for 1-3 2-4 half steps and falling back on 1-2-4 (or 1-3-4 if that feels more comfortable) for when 3 notes in a position are required. There are no bass police and 1-2-3-4 can be very useful, but it’s only one tool in our toolbox and ideally for most passages we put the work in to find what the best tool is rather than only sticking to one school of thought.As a highschool student I was always badgered by my teachers to stick to the simandl 124 fingering. Buy my hand naturally wanted to use all 4 fingers. Fast forward about 25 years and I come across Thomas Gale's triangulation method which pretty much nails what I naturally wanted to do my whole life. I guess the important thing is intonation without straining and injury.
As an aside, I do use 2-3 half steps (sometimes whole steps or even minor thirds, albeit the latter is extremely rare) somewhat frequently in thumb position, and while they’re less comfortable than +-1, 1-2, and 1-3, I find that they’re easier to execute than in neck position due to the weight of the arm being above the string, requiring less forearm rotation and finger movements to change fingers.
Back to the OP, if the student plays in tune with 1-3-4 and they aren’t in pain, there’s no need to have them switch to 1-2-4.
Thanks for all the replies. I'm thinking now that I'll let things ride once we start lessons and see how it goes. I'm reminded of a concert I was involved in. The piece was a Haydn symphony with a lot of fast scale work. One player used a four-finger approach, one largely vertical with more traditional fingering, and the third across the strings with minimal shifting and more pivoting. The fact that there were three quite different approaches to the same material shows how many options we can have, depending on various physical and other factors. All are legit IMO.
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Are you trying to say this method doesn't work? Ron McClure and Furio DiCasti are absolute masters of the style of bass playing you love. I think it is slightly better for intonation and you might pay a bit in facility. All the Italian bass players I've heard are fast and clean so that each finger needing its own tendon thing seems to be untrue.
Amazingly enough, piano players, saxophone players, flute players, violin players, bassoon players, and guitar players all use the ring finger on either/both hands as an independent actor. The tendon thing sounds like an excuse.
I've been paying a lot more attention to this question since starting this thread. I've especially noticed the various approaches used by some of the great solo players on YouTube. I must admit that some of the variations in what I would consider "proper" technique make my teacher self cringe but that's my problem. I still will emphasize best practices but will keep in mind what some of the variations can be if they work for the student. As an aside, I recently played a concert that was videoed. My reaction to seeing myself playing was: "That guy looks way too old to still be playing bass, but his left hand is in the perfect shape."
I just got a new student who had some beginning training from a violinist. I will have to make some corrections but one thing I won't try to change is that she is comfortable playing 1-3-4. Previously I would have tried to change this but now I think we'll work with it and see what happens. I have the Bille books so we'll start with those. Will this old dog be up to it? We'll find out. This is my second student who has come in using this fingering in a few months so I'm more motivated to deal with it without changing. I'll try it myself if I can keep from getting totally confused.
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In my own practice, I have been starting to experiment with 1-3-4 fingering, particularly after watching this Anders Jormin video closely.
I have yet to explicitly try it on a gig, but I have been finding it useful for more melodic playing.
I have yet to explicitly try it on a gig, but I have been finding it useful for more melodic playing.
