Double Bass 1/2 Size for an Adult?

[fdeck]

I second owning a bass buggy. Once my daughter started using it 2 years ago, all the other basses in her orchestra purchased one as well. It's a back saver!

Every "bass parent" who's seen my bass buggy, has bought one for their kid, if they don't already have a wheel. One of them made their own. I've also seen a skateboard truck screwed to a hard cello case.

My kids are in the local youth orchestra. There was an orientation meeting at the beginning of one season, and somebody overheard me talking about the bass. Soon, I was surrounded by several parents who were grilling me about transportation: What kind of car I drive, etc.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

To clarify, I don't think Englehardt makes a 1/2-scale bass. It's a 1/4, right?

IIRC it’s a 1/4 body with a roughly 1/2 mensure.

After the time I played one backing up a pianist without amplification I tried to forget it ever happened so my memory may be incorrect.

 

[fdeck]

... In their historical context, for what applications were these smaller basses intended?

... and where are they? Granted, there are fewer old basses around than modern ones, but I also imagine that a decent historical bass wouldn't just vanish. What was the actual range of mensures for basses in past centuries? All I've ever read about is longer basses receiving shorter necks.

 

[DizzyK2]

Every "bass parent" who's seen my bass buggy, has bought one for their kid, if they don't already have a wheel. One of them made their own. I've also seen a skateboard truck screwed to a hard cello case.

My kids are in the local youth orchestra. There was an orientation meeting at the beginning of one season, and somebody overheard me talking about the bass. Soon, I was surrounded by several parents who were grilling me about transportation: What kind of car I drive, etc.

The trio of basses in our group all drive a 4Runner, Volvo XC90 and a Toyota Sienna minivan. I've gotten to the point that once my daughter moves to 3/4 size from her 1/2 size, I'm going to have to put one of the seats down in my 4Runner. I've been making do with just putting the middle down for now. The other two parents put down one seat.

I've mulled over getting a used Suburban or Expedition EL/Max but the price seems too high. I've looked at a Dodge Durango and found that you will have to put one seat down to fit a 3/4 size bass as well. I guess it'll be moot in a few years when she goes to college and will get the 2007 Subaru Tribeca. The 1/2 size and 3/4 size bass will fit with one seat down. I'm just looking for an excuse to get a Suburban....LOL. I've even squeezed a 1/2 bass in the front seat of a Camry once with the neck in the passenger seat footwell. I saw a youtube video of people squeezing a bass into a Mini Cooper using this method. Just don't expect to fit anyone else in the car with you!

At a Bass Works workshop, I once saw a parent pushing a bass using one of those portable luggage carts. They used bungie cords to hold the bass in place. I cringed when I saw a couple of cords right on top of the bridge!!! I quickly advised them to move those cords before they damaged the bridge. Then they saw our Bass Buggy and asked where I got it from. At the All-State auditions, I saw the same parent again......with a Bass Buggy. LOL! That $150 overpriced plastic on wheels is well worth the investment.

 

[GretschWretch]

... and where are they? Granted, there are fewer old basses around than modern ones, but I also imagine that a decent historical bass wouldn't just vanish. What was the actual range of mensures for basses in past centuries? All I've ever read about is longer basses receiving shorter necks.

This is a very good question that spotlights a lacuna in the literature. AFAIK we just don't have production numbers for these old downsized instruments (any more than we do for old masterbuilt 3/4s), nor do we know the mensures. The only sources I am aware of which address this matter at all are Elgar, page 17, here

Introduction To The Double Bass

and a very obscure book published in the 1970s by music educator David Stanton which illustrates what is claimed to be a small da Salo. What additional information there may be probably is contained in un-indexed, and perhaps even uncatalogued, primary sources.

Following the lead of the apostle Paul who said that a thing is either good or evil depending on how it is used, I would say that in OP's situation the problem is less the 1/2 bass itself than its use with two 3/4 instruments. To me this falls under the rubric of balance in a section: you want all the instruments to blend. In this context the presence of the half-size is akin to an orchestral trombonist playing the third part showing up with a pea-shooter trombone designed for jazz soloists or, more impactfully, bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I still maintain that there are, or were, legitimate uses for all these poly-sized instruments. But the situation of OP's daughter is not one of them. When in the land of the 3/4 bass, get a 3/4 bass.

 

[bengreen]

It's not just volume involved, it's sound quality.

I was once asked by a violin store owner to evaluate a pair of 1/2 sized basses she just got in. My impession was I was using bass technique to play a cello. It was totally fun to sing solo lit so easily, but as far as the bottom end, there was no there there.

Are players who are using these for gigs able to fatten up the lows, as opposed to just making them louder, with amplification?

 

[oliebrice]

surely we've all had enough of this debate now?

 

[fdeck]

The trio of basses in our group all drive a 4Runner, Volvo XC90 and a Toyota Sienna minivan. I've gotten to the point that once my daughter moves to 3/4 size from her 1/2 size, I'm going to have to put one of the seats down in my 4Runner. I've been making do with just putting the middle down for now. The other two parents put down one seat.

I've mulled over getting a used Suburban or Expedition EL/Max but the price seems too high. I've looked at a Dodge Durango and found that you will have to put one seat down to fit a 3/4 size bass as well. I guess it'll be moot in a few years when she goes to college and will get the 2007 Subaru Tribeca. The 1/2 size and 3/4 size bass will fit with one seat down. I'm just looking for an excuse to get a Suburban....LOL. I've even squeezed a 1/2 bass in the front seat of a Camry once with the neck in the passenger seat footwell. I saw a youtube video of people squeezing a bass into a Mini Cooper using this method. Just don't expect to fit anyone else in the car with you!

At a Bass Works workshop, I once saw a parent pushing a bass using one of those portable luggage carts. They used bungie cords to hold the bass in place. I cringed when I saw a couple of cords right on top of the bridge!!! I quickly advised them to move those cords before they damaged the bridge. Then they saw our Bass Buggy and asked where I got it from. At the All-State auditions, I saw the same parent again......with a Bass Buggy. LOL! That $150 overpriced plastic on wheels is well worth the investment.

My kids play violin and cello. I use the family cars for my bass, plus we sometimes go to things like fiddle jams and similar events, where we end up hauling all of our instruments at once. Also, if the kids have a concert or recital, the entire family might end up going along. My daughter can ride her bike with her violin, and my son could take his cello onto the bus, but in practical terms the bus ride adds an hour or more to his Saturday routine. So we drive to orchestra.

We have a 2004 Sienna minivan, and a 2006 Scion XA hatchback.

With the minivan, we can remove the back row of seats, and transport the entire family of four plus all of our instruments and my amp. The neck of my bass goes between the two passenger seats. We once went on a family vacation that included camping, a fiddle camp for the kids, and a gig for me. So we hauled my bass and amp, a cello, two violins, camping gear, etc.

If it's just me and my bass, then I put it into the Scion, by folding down the rear seats. I can even carry another instrument and a passenger.

I don't have much experience with SUV's, except for a trip to Iceland where we had a giant 4WD Ford Expedition, six passengers, and a small suitcase for each person. It was powerful and comfortable, like a 70s station wagon. But we barely fit. My personal observation is that an SUV has remarkably little useful interior space compared to a minivan. It's really more of a passenger vehicle than a gear hauler. Also, something that big wouldn't fit into our garage. The minivan is cavernous, drives more like a car, and is easier to get stuff in and out because it has a lower floor.

NB: I hope I'm not carrying on the debate. This is about our most important issue of all: Transportation.

 

[Neil Pye]

There may HAVE BEEN uses, but with modern strings, bows and teaching techniques, the only excuse for a an adult human to use a 1/2 size is that they lack technique or willingness to apply themselves. 1/2 size basses have more drawbacks than advantages, from a musical point of view

 

[aesopslyre]

There may HAVE BEEN uses, but with modern strings, bows and teaching techniques, the only excuse for a an adult human to use a 1/2 size is that they lack technique or willingness to apply themselves. 1/2 size basses have more drawbacks than advantages, from a musical point of view

In the future: There May HAVE BEEN uses, at one time, for basses larger than a 1/2 size, but with modern amplification techniques, and pedagogy (think Rabbath, not Simandl) the only reason for an Adult Human to use a 3/4 size or larger is hidebound tradition. 3/4 size basses have more drawbacks than advantages... hard to transport, more difficult to amplify, less facility is afforded for left-hand technique.. from a musical point of view, the aré cumbersome and difficult to play.

 

[PauFerro]

It's not just volume involved, it's sound quality.

I was once asked by a violin store owner to evaluate a pair of 1/2 sized basses she just got in. My impession was I was using bass technique to play a cello. It was totally fun to sing solo lit so easily, but as far as the bottom end, there was no there there.

Are players who are using these for gigs able to fatten up the lows, as opposed to just making them louder, with amplification?

I use a smaller sized bass with a Krivo electro magnetic pickup and got a lot of complements on the tone and some good paying gigs as a result, in a relatively short period of time after picking up the instrument for the first time.

The lows are not a problem at all, although I have to amplify in all situations. I use a Gallien Krueger head with a Seismic 2X10 cabinet and it sounds good. I suggest you try a bunch of different basses if you are into the smaller size -- they are not all great sounding. And try them with amplification.

The first fractional size I played (less than a 3/4) 4 years ago sounded dead as a doornail -- no resonance at all. I didn't think amplification or EQ would help either. At that point I abandoned all hope of playing upright.

You do seem to get a better sound quality on average with a 3/4 bass -- I admit that, but I have multiple criteria for a bass, and tone is only one of them -- there is transportability, time to paid gigs on the instrument at first, and overall enjoyment in playing the instrument. I am willing to sacrifice some tone for the other criteria, and it doesn't seem to have mattered so far.

But it's not for everyone. I would suggest spending a day in a store that has a good selection until one of the instruments chooses you....

 

[aesopslyre]

There is a clear trend in recent years towards smaller basses ... Czech-Ease. kolstein busetto, Spada Contrabassetto, Chennell Arco, etc. Geared towards players functioning in a non-orchestral setting. and a clear demand, else these makers would not be in the business of attempting to assuage a need in the bass community. Given this, what really is the difference between a a Czech-ease, and a 1/4 size, other than mensur? Granted, many fractional size basses are made for students, and do not have the resonant timbre of their larger kin, but this is largely a matter of construction method, I should think.

 

[GretschWretch]

Before we get too far down this rabbit hole (again), I suggest we all look ar TroyK's sticky at the top of this forum. That should save a lot of redundancy. Then perhaps we can agree to some general postulates.

1) 3/4 DB = Fender Precision: it is the baseline instrument and will get you through at least 90% of the gigs a DB is called for.

2) Smaller (or larger) DBs are niche instruments, akin to an ABG or fretless electric. Not the baseline, but useful for some specialized applications. But the consensus is, get the 3/4 first.

3) All other things being equal, instrument selection should be organic: the player selects the instrument which in the player's view is best suited for the task at hand. This principle could even be extended to mandobasses and bassoguitars. Purely acoustic basses don't have onboard tone controls. Sometimes obtaining a different voicing requires a change of strings, or a change of instruments.

 

[aesopslyre]

Before we get too far down this rabbit hole (again), I suggest we all look ar TroyK's sticky at the top of this forum. That should save a lot of redundancy. Then perhaps we can agree to some general postulates.

1) 3/4 DB = Fender Precision: it is the baseline instrument and will get you through at least 90% of the gigs a DB is called for.

2) Smaller (or larger) DBs are niche instruments, akin to an ABG or fretless electric. Not the baseline, but useful for some specialized applications. But the consensus is, get the 3/4 first.

3) All other things being equal, instrument selection should be organic: the player selects the instrument which in the player's view is best suited for the task at hand. This principle could even be extended to mandobasses and bassoguitars. Purely acoustic basses don't have onboard tone controls. Sometimes obtaining a different voicing requires a change of strings, or a change of instruments.

The OP stated that he? already owns a 3/4 size bass. I myself have owned two 3/4 size basses. So we are not rank novices, obviously. I also have never owned a precision. I prefer J basses. And, amplification changes the whole scenario drastically.

 

[aesopslyre]

I've owned a 3/4 upright that ive been playing off and on for roughly 10 years. I found an engelhardt 1/2 size bass for sale and I am interested in buying it. I play a mix of folk and jazz in an acoustic trio. The 1/2 size seems more portable and I was wondering if it would be a big difference switching from a 3/4 to a 1/2. Any thoughts, suggestions, cautions? Please let me know what you think. I am 5'8". Thanks

You will have to adjust your left- hand technique, and adjust your stance somewhat. (Or sit) Other than that, not a huge difference. A 1/2 size is more portable , and can offer more playability in the mid-register, (4th position) as four-finger left hand technique may be employed more advantageously , at least in my case. But my hands are larger than normal, perhaps by a substantial margin. If the bass is a student grade instrument, as many 1;2 size basses are, the timbre May be less robust than that of a 3/4, although of course a well-made 1/2 size can easily have a richer timbre and fundamental projection than a student-grade 3/4 size. All basses are not created equal.

 

[GretschWretch]

The OP stated that he? already owns a 3/4 size bass. I myself have owned two 3/4 size basses. So we are not rank novices, obviously. I also have never owned a precision. I prefer J basses. And, amplification changes the whole scenario drastically.

There have been, within the last month, two pitched battles in TB over 1/4 sized basses. I was simply trying to prevent a trifecta. This thread already has drifted a bit from OP's original scope. I see now that I did not communicate as clearly as I should have; I was posting from the larger context. But it appears to me that your reply is exhibiting some of the same type of drift. I never mentioned pros, nor novices, nor amplification. And it is the OP's daughter, not OP, who has the smaller bass.

 

[aesopslyre]

There have been, within the last month, two pitched battles in TB over 1/4 sized basses. I was simply trying to prevent a trifecta. This thread already has drifted a bit from OP's original scope. I see now that I did not communicate as clearly as I should have; I was posting from the larger context. But it appears to me that your reply is exhibiting some of the same type of drift. I never mentioned pros, nor novices, nor amplification. And it is the OP's daughter, not OP, who has the smaller bass.

Perhaps it is you who is adrift? You also stated “get the 3/4 first”. Perhaps you’re replying to a different post, not that of the OP


OP:

I've owned a 3/4 upright that ive been playing off and on for roughly 10 years. I found an engelhardt 1/2 size bass for sale and I am interested in buying it. I play a mix of folk and jazz in an acoustic trio. The 1/2 size seems more portable and I was wondering if it would be a big difference switching from a 3/4 to a 1/2. Any thoughts, suggestions, cautions? Please let me know what you think. I am 5'8". Thanks

 

[GretschWretch]

Perhaps it is you who is adrift? You also stated “get the 3/4 first”. Perhaps you’re replying to a different post, not that of the OP


OP:

The original OP's post is by now nearly eight years old; the current discussion begins with post #5. My comments were addressed to post #20. So yes, I was sloppy in my mis-identification of OP. But it is pretty clear that, even beginning with post #5, there is some topical drift in the comments in this thread.

Liked the video you posted, by the way, both the technique displayed and the sound of the Arco Bass. If it is not to much trouble, could you provide me the length of the top and the depth of the sides at the C bout?

Thanks.

 

[aesopslyre]

The original OP's post is by now nearly eight years old; the current discussion begins with post #5. My comments were addressed to post #20. So yes, I was sloppy in my mis-identification of OP. But it is pretty clear that, even beginning with post #5, there is some topical drift in the comments in this thread.

Liked the video you posted, by the way, both the technique displayed and the sound of the Arco Bass. If it is not to much trouble, could you provide me the length of the top and the depth of the sides at the C bout?

Thanks.

Haha, I’m replying to a zombie thread! I suppose I need the anchor now. I will now spit the toenails out, as the taste of my own foot is disagreeable. Thanks for the edification. Thanks for your kind words. The table is 30” to the shoulder, and rib height is 4 3/4” at the c bout.. quite svelte

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Before we get too far down this rabbit hole (again), I suggest we all look ar TroyK's sticky at the top of this forum. That should save a lot of redundancy.

Well spoken - great post. Let's not go down this rabbit hole again. If somebody wants to play a small bass, that's with them. I don't think there's any mistaking what the consensus conventional wisdom is, or reason to worry that unless the community pushes back against every "1/2 size bass for gigs" thread some newbie is going to make some horrible mistake and ruin their life. Play what you want, and let the music and the other players who either hire you or don't decide the rest.

Here's Troy's excellent sticky thread: FAQ - 1/2 and 1/4 sized Double Basses