Double Bass 1/4 DB VS 3/4

[Dabndug]

If the bass is going to be amplified using a piezo it will potentially be fine depending on the quality of pickup and set-up.

You can think of the bass as an EUB with the added benefit of a hollow body and the traditional note dynamics that this configuration produces. You should be able to process the signal to produce a very usable sound that is very close to a similarly amplified 3/4 DB. The big difference will be driven by the shorter scale and (limited) string selection. The bass will be biased to having a more fundamental-heavy tone due to the 36" scale (assuming standard tuning).

 

[Wasnex]

You should be able to process the signal to produce a very usable sound that is very close to a similarly amplified 3/4 DB.

Just keep in mind, the natural resonances of the bass have an impact on the amplified tone as well. How much impact depends on the type of pickup.

I remember student level cellos sounding better acoustically than fractional basses. I tried to find some videos of fractional basses, but this is the best I could find (a cello).


Here's a live version:


I would expect an amplified fractional bass to sound similar to this, but not quite as good.

I think the difference with most of the fractional basses I have come across is the panels are thicker than a cello. Most of them sounded sort of toy like/fake. The overtones of the notes sounded wrong and there was no cushion down low. I believe these basses were laminate.

I have played one fractional size bass that sounded like a real instrument and produced a bit more volume than most. While it was the best I have come across, it had sort of a cardboardy quality to the sound. I believe this was due to resonance in the low mids, and in my experience is EQ is not necessarily effective in dialing this quality out.

This bass was in a violin shop in San Antonio around 2005. It was either a hybrid or fully carved, and they were asking about $4000 for it. I seriously considered buying it to have a small bass to amplify. I wouldn't say the bass sounded good, rather it sounded less bad than the typical fractional bass.

 

[Joe Tully]

I had to Wikipedia Helmholtz. Interesting applications related to this principle. I believe I shall take a more pragmatic approach and maybe play the thing to see how it sounds. Cellos after all are yet smaller and offer a very pleasing resonance. We'll see. I have played with all strings tuned a half step down. Maybe this will lend itself to an alteration in the other direction. If nothing else it's becoming quite the conversation piece. Thanks for playing.

 

[Joe Tully]

Just keep in mind, the natural resonances of the bass have an impact on the amplified tone as well. How much impact depends on the type of pickup.

I remember student level cellos sounding better acoustically than fractional basses. I tried to find some videos of fractional basses, but this is the best I could find (a cello).


Here's a live version:


I would expect an amplified fractional bass to sound similar to this, but not quite as good.

I think the difference with most of the fractional basses I have come across is the panels are thicker than a cello. Most of them sounded sort of toy like/fake. The overtones of the notes sounded wrong and there was no cushion down low. I believe these basses were laminate.

I have played one fractional size bass that sounded like a real instrument and produced a bit more volume than most. While it was the best I have come across, it had sort of a cardboardy quality to the sound. I believe this was due to resonance in the low mids, and in my experience is EQ is not necessarily effective in dialing this quality out.

This bass was in a violin shop in San Antonio around 2005. It was either a hybrid or fully carved, and they were asking about $4000 for it. I seriously considered buying it to have a small bass to amplify. I wouldn't say the bass sounded good, rather it sounded less bad than the typical fractional bass.

Wow, yeah I'm familiar with the Dead South and even mentioned that earlier on in the thread. Thanks for the show and tell video. Bottom line for me is I would rather hear a bass playing the bass part. Wouldn't we all? Is there a Talk Cello website? Anyway the 1/4 size idea seems neither a solid musical one nor enough of a novelty to make it feasible. Like the EUB idea that came and went for me a few years ago, everyone's excellent responses are helping. After all it seems like it would be a hassle to arrive at what's already been achieved with a 3/4, a bass instrument that sounds like a bass.

 

[GretschWretch]

Context is everything; for what type of music do you intend to use the bass? If we're talking bluegrass, country, jazz, some Americana, I'm going 3/4 all the way. For "good time" music, e.g., jug band, I may go 3/4 or 1/2, depending on the size of the venue. Or I may bring a more "esoteric" bass. If it's music like Midnight Well, Nanci Griffith, Emmylou, Taylor, Lightfoot, Croce, as long as I don't have to stand it's 1/4 all the way (amplified ABGs are for standing gigs). From this perspective comparisons with 3/4s largely are irrelevant; the only relevant question is, is the instrument sufficient for its use?

My Engle 1/4 basically is a hack special; I had to perform all manner of mischief with the tailpiece in order to be able to use the strings I wanted to. It doesn't even have an endpin. It is for lap playing only. 35 1/4" mensure as compared to the Fender 34". Not as bassy as a 3/4 of course -- much more mid-rangey -- for for my purposes the tone is perfect, and the bass is plenty loud. If I can sit at the rear of the ensemble I often don't even amplify; I just bleed into the mics the others are using. But this is the only context in which I would use a 1/4 DB.

 

[Wasnex]

I believe I shall take a more pragmatic approach and maybe play the thing to see how it sounds.

IMHO this is a great idea!

 

[Joe Tully]

Context is everything; for what type of music do you intend to use the bass? If we're talking bluegrass, country, jazz, some Americana, I'm going 3/4 all the way. For "good time" music, e.g., jug band, I may go 3/4 or 1/2, depending on the size of the venue. Or I may bring a more "esoteric" bass. If it's music like Midnight Well, Nanci Griffith, Emmylou, Taylor, Lightfoot, Croce, as long as I don't have to stand it's 1/4 all the way (amplified ABGs are for standing gigs). From this perspective comparisons with 3/4s largely are irrelevant; the only relevant question is, is the instrument sufficient for its use?

My Engle 1/4 basically is a hack special; I had to perform all manner of mischief with the tailpiece in order to be able to use the strings I wanted to. It doesn't even have an endpin. It is for lap playing only. 35 1/4" mensure as compared to the Fender 34". Not as bassy as a 3/4 of course -- much more mid-rangey -- for for my purposes the tone is perfect, and the bass is plenty loud. If I can sit at the rear of the ensemble I often don't even amplify; I just bleed into the mics the others are using. But this is the only context in which I would use a 1/4 DB.

So no distinct outright advantages to a 1/4? Easier to play in the higher register perhaps just cuz it's easier to reach and a shorter scale means better articulation up there? Any saving graces at all?

 

[Wasnex]

So no distinct outright advantages to a 1/4? Easier to play in the higher register perhaps just cuz it's easier to reach and a shorter scale means better articulation up there? Any saving graces at all?

If it's set up well, it should be easier to play. Also, obviously it will take up way less real estate on stage and in your vehicle.

However switching between different fretless instruments tends to result in compromised intonation. If you can hear the bass well, you can correct on the fly, but making big jumps up and down the neck can still be problematic.

 

[GretschWretch]

So no distinct outright advantages to a 1/4? Easier to play in the higher register perhaps just cuz it's easier to reach and a shorter scale means better articulation up there? Any saving graces at all?

I am going to have to proofread my posts more thoroughly before I send them. I thought I specified several outright advantages. But I agree with those who have said you cannot substitute a 1/4 bass for a 3/4. It would be like giving tuba parts to a euphonium in concert band. I consider my 1/4 to be a large acoustic bass guitar and employ it as such.

 

[Joe Tully]

Thank you for your help.

 

[GretschWretch]

If it's set up well, it should be easier to play. Also, obviously it will take up way less real estate on stage and in your vehicle.

However switching between different fretless instruments tends to result in compromised intonation. If you can hear the bass well, you can correct on the fly, but making big jumps up and down the neck can still be problematic.

Yes; poor set-up is just asking for trouble. But those of us who play fretless instruments of different mensures have to learn to adjust on the fly. Muscle memory can help. Side position markers can help. Structural clues like the nut and heel curves on a DB neck can help. But ultimately we have to use our ears to "fine-tune" our pitch accuracy.

My only regret about the 1/4 is that my fingers are a bit too short to nail the octave without contending with the heel. But that is on me, not the instrument.

 

[Joe Tully]

I find myself facing differences between the two 3/4 instruments I play alternately. I agree: muscle memory, side markers, adjusting on the fly all come into play. I think I just need to drive the 70min and spend some time with the instrument. Thanks again.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I think I'm unclear on the concept. Say that a different way for us less gifted folks please.

I have heard this also. I believe he is saying that, if you took the string-pitch-to-body-size ratio of the violin as the model for a double bass, it would be so large as to make it extremely unwieldy to play.

 

[Don Hergert]

Note: The washtub he was standing on later became a washtub bass, much more portable.

 

[Joe Tully]

That would be me on a 4/4.

 

[Paps]

Wasnex gives a great explanation of the sizes of instruments required.
But it is a trade off for the lower notes.
I believe I have read somewhere that a standard sized Violin is exactly the correct size to resonate these notes.
A cello should be the size of a bass and the bass should be much, much larger.
I would look out for a 3/4 with a shorter scale length.

 

[Joe Tully]

I have played a 3/4 exclusively and I'm ok with the scale. In fact I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice much in the way of tonality in order to gain more ease of fingering via a shorter scale. I like the concept of Frankensteining a shorter neck onto a larger body yet I also like the concept of owning a carved bass from the 19th century, an Alcoa aluminum one, a Stratavarious (spelling?) one...you get the idea. I like playing in the lower register, I like making folks run for the earthquake shelter with a sustained low E note. Silly me for thinking 1/4. It's another reason Talk Bass is so successful. It's a forum for talking people down off the upper bout.

 

[Ric Vice]

I own a Kolstine Busetto Travel Bass
it has the same scale length as my 5/8ths Mirecourt amplified sounds great with a pickup or a microphone. It may have a better attack amplified than the Mirecourt.

 

[Joe Tully]

It looks like a bass on a diet. Advantages over a larger instrument?

 

[Ric Vice]

Easier to transport, the mensure is the same as a Double Bass, removable neck, amplifies well. I played a 1/2 sized Kay in Jr. High School and a few times since then. The Kolstine produces more sound acoustically since it has a carved top made from Poplar with a Maple back and sides. These “pancake” basses have been around for a long time. Both Kay and Voit and Geiger built them in the 1930’s.