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1/4 inch vs. speakon vs. banana plugs...

#41
You mean at the guitar itself? Heck yeah you can. Just gotta do a little choppy-choppy to the body to make everything fit, but I wonder if a Speakon connector would affect your tone. Same reason you don't wanna use speaker-gauge wire for a signal cable. For signal levels, you want the thinnest, cleanest wire.

If you really wanna customize your bass with better fittings, go XLR. I've seen a few musicians who retrofit their gear with XLR's, cuz the fittings are signal-level quality, and of course they lock when connected. Just connect your send and returns to the same corresponding pins. You've got three pins to choose from. Effectively, you could dedicate one pin that's connected to the XLR cable's common (ground) just for RF shielding, and then the other two as dedicated send and return leads. I've heard of people modifying their amps as well, to make their input 1/4" jack a stereo jack, so the sleeve is shielding, and the ring and tip are the sends and returns. You could do the same at the amp with an XLR connection. Think about it for a minute... that makes your guitar compatible with ANY microphone cable, and ANY venue will have plenty of those if you need one!

I'm screwed, I run wireless so I don't get that benefit. But then again, I can jump across the bar and climb tables and drink from the beer tap mid-song... :D
 
#42
1/4" jacks work fine as do the banana, I had some banana's fit loosely as posted earlier by a TB'er but that can be adjusted.
IMO, speakon's have now become a universally used plug compared to the banana on both amps and cabs.
 
#45
Electrical-grade copper wire is a great conductor, but not a perfect conductor. Copper wire does provide a slight amount of resistance. I'd have to bust out my electrical textbooks to dig it up, but here's the basic gist of it all.

The thicker the wire, the more current it can carry, but the more resistance (and inductance) it inflicts on the signal. Thin wires, with a smaller cross-sectional area, can send signals with great clarity and little drop in voltage. Longer runs are easier. With thicker wire and larger area, you can pass signals with very strong voltage and current flow, but after a certain length of wire you start losing signal strength and quality, which is why speaker cables are mostly intended to be shorter cables.

This is why a guitar cable's conductor inside the center shielded core is so thin and flimsy, and why speaker cables are huge honkin' monsters in comparison.

I'm sure Bill Fitzmaurice will correct some of my terminology here, but this is the generalization of how electrical conductors work.
 
#47
You would NOT want to fit a speakon to a guitar. The speakon is designed as a SPEAKer cONnector. It has no shielding whatsoever. A phone/XLR would work but again no inherent sheilding. They are designed to mount onto a metal panel which will provide the shielding.

Bryan, as a matter of interest why would a venue provide a mic cable?? Very few actually have PA systems so why would they have cables? It's a musicians responsablility to bring to the gig everything he needs to play that gig. That is what he/she is being paid to do. I know of one bar owner who, if the band uses his tables to put their PA cabs on, will deduct $50 from the fee. As he says he provides tables for his customers to sit at and not for the band to use as PA stands.

Paul
 
#48
The gigs I play all have stages and PA systems. I-Rock, the Ritz, TNT's, Token Lounge, Longhorn Saloon, Cleme's Pour House, Royal Oak Theater, even the outdoor Toxic Bash has their own PA system.

Why would a venue provide a mic cable? Say, you got your guitar cable slammed in the door by accident, or somebody rolls a cab over the connector, and your cable is scrap. Most venues I've played did not have a backup instrument cable, which is why my passenger seat's rear pouch has a 25' Monster instrument cable always tucked inside there, just in case. But say that fails, or I didn't drive to the gig (unlikely!) and someone says, "Crap, I just destroyed my cable, now what?" If they don't have a backup, what do they do? No club stocks up on instrument cables.

However, EVERY gig I've ever played had some spare mic cables. Cuz they got mics they need to hook up for guitar rigs, drums, vocal mics... all that sort. Of all the peripherals and stuff that can be found at a typical club gig, a mic cable is the most common.
 
#49
pickles said:
Maybe there is some other advantage to thin wire for signal?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's cheaper, and thicker wire doesn't work any better, if as well. Resistance ideally should be kept to less than 1% of the load impedance. With a 4 ohm speaker cabinet that means 0.04 ohms. With an amp that has an average input impedance of 1 meg ohm resistance loss in the wire is a non-issue.
The thicker the wire, the more current it can carry, but the more resistance (and inductance) it inflicts on the signal.
Click to expand...
Heavier wire has less resistance, not more, but as explained in the above paragraph there comes a point where less resistance is moot. Both inductance and capacitance are increased with the size of the conductor, so there does come a point where bigger isn't better, it's worse, with both instrument and speaker cables.
 
#50
Bryan316 said:
The thicker the wire, the more current it can carry, but the more resistance (and inductance) it inflicts on the signal. Thin wires, with a smaller cross-sectional area, can send signals with great clarity and little drop in voltage.

Longer runs are easier. With thicker wire and larger area, you can pass signals with very strong voltage and current flow, but after a certain length of wire you start losing signal strength and quality, which is why speaker cables are mostly intended to be shorter cables.
Click to expand...

Better check those books. Both resistance and inductance DECREASE with increasing wire radius (at least at reasonably low frequencies like audio signals).

Resistance is proportional to L/A (L = wire length, A = cross-sectional area).

Inductance is proportional to ( ln(2L/r) - 0.75 ), where L is the length and r is the wire radius.

This is why a guitar cable's conductor inside the center shielded core is so thin and flimsy, and why speaker cables are huge honkin' monsters in comparison.
Click to expand...

No, it's because low-level, low-current signals don't NEED the lower resistance of a large conductor to have acceptable voltage drop. Why use more wire than you need to? Just makes the cable heavier, less flexible, and more expensive.

Asad
 
#51
Bryan316 said:
The gigs I play all have stages and PA systems. I-Rock, the Ritz, TNT's, Token Lounge, Longhorn Saloon, Cleme's Pour House, Royal Oak Theater, even the outdoor Toxic Bash has their own PA system.

Why would a venue provide a mic cable? Say, you got your guitar cable slammed in the door by accident, or somebody rolls a cab over the connector, and your cable is scrap. Most venues I've played did not have a backup instrument cable, which is why my passenger seat's rear pouch has a 25' Monster instrument cable always tucked inside there, just in case. But say that fails, or I didn't drive to the gig (unlikely!) and someone says, "Crap, I just destroyed my cable, now what?" If they don't have a backup, what do they do? No club stocks up on instrument cables.

However, EVERY gig I've ever played had some spare mic cables. Cuz they got mics they need to hook up for guitar rigs, drums, vocal mics... all that sort. Of all the peripherals and stuff that can be found at a typical club gig, a mic cable is the most common.
Click to expand...

Obviously you are playing better rooms than the vast majority of the rest of us. The reasons you quote are all excellent however it is still a musicians problem not the clubs. They are PAYING YOU to perform. All a club needs to supply is sufficient electrical power. I carry three of every cable I need in case of such eventualities. Anyone who doesn't carry spares is one day going to be caught short.

Paul
 
#52
If you really want to go all out, you could put an XLR input on your amp. Depending on your amp, your pin 1 shield wire and pin 3 ground will either be common or with the shield wire connected directly to the metal frame of the amp. Pin 2 would still stay hot. :)
 
#53
Bryan316 said:
WOW. Lots of incorrect info in this thread.



Fitzy is correct about the original intentions of 1/4" phone jacks and plugs.

Chasarms, 1/4" jacks are good to use for up to around 300 watts of juice. Anything above that, and you run into chances of failure. The reason being, is that the amount of current running through a, say, 12-ga cable, can pass through without thermal problems or inherent resistance. But as soon as the cross-sectional surface area of that 12-ga cable gets necked down to the surface contact point inside a 1/4" connection, you see a huge jump in resistance and tons of wattage flowing through that point creates heat. I've seen plenty of 1/4" jacks/plugs fail because they get too warm and their plastic components melt.

For decades, bassists didn't have extreme-wattage high-power solid-state amps that can push 2000 watts! That's a serious amount of juice! Hell, even an Ampeg SVT6 running 1100 watts is a dangerous amp to make mistakes with, and that's a relatively brand-new amp.



"Again, the bigger issue is the wire itself, not the connector."

Absolutely incorrect. As Bongomania posted, "Surface area. When you consider that 1/4" plugs are round, and the flexible contact tabs inside the jacks are flat, it means the actual connecting surface area of each + and - point is only a few molecules wide. Banana plugs and Speakons have a lot more connecting surface area." That smaller surface area leads to increases of resistance, dropping of wattage, and thermal waste.

Also as Trevcda mentioned, speakons are protected. With a 1/4" jack, you can physically touch the two contacts and electrocute yourself. the same is true with banana plugs. With Speakons, however, their contact terminals are COMPLETELY SHIELDED BY NONCONDUCTING PLASTIC. You cannot physically touch the contacts. That alone should convince you of the superiority of Speakon over previous connectors.



"Mesa seem to have been quite happy for decades with the 1/4"plugs on the 400+, and that is certainly not a "low-powered" amp. They obviously did not consider it worth the effort to change to speakon???"

Just cuz they're Mesa, doesn't mean everything they do is absolutely right. Just look at their Rectifier series amps... BUZZ!!!! ;) I love their construction methods, but not everything they do is genius. Some of it is just following the industry standards, which are standards that are quite obsolete, in my most humble of opinions. :)



"I want to know why the peavey DPC1400 has banana plugs in the US version but the european portion of the manual shows the DPC1400 having speakons."

Because the Speakon connector was developed by Neutrik, a European company, and was implimented there first. Not everyone in the states even knows that Speakon exists, nor exactly what Speakon is for! Heck, some Guitarded Center twerps don't even understand the difference between a Speakon NL2 and NL4 connector, or that there's such a thing as a bridging-only Speakon cable! I've been handed those cables when asking for a standard Speakon cable, and had to (quite rudely) school their asses on the differences. Shame, that a customer knows more about a product than a "specialist salesman."
Click to expand...

I didn't know there was a bridging only Speakon cable. I have no idea what one is. I don't work at GC either though.
 
#54
I've searched for this, but haven't found a concrete answer for my situation yet, so to speak. If I have an older 300 watt tube amp that only has 1/4 inch outs and banana plug outs, and my cabinet only has a Speakon, and I need to buy a cable anyways (I'm going to get a quality one made), should I get the one for the amp end with the banana plug or the 1/4 plug? I know the banana plug has more contact area, so I'm thinking of that being the better bet, but I hear they can pop out easier than 1/4 inch plugs while playing, etc. Thoughts? If I didn't find an exact thread that answers this, and you guys know of one, feel free to point me there. Much thanks!
 
#55
Backstreets said:
I've searched for this, but haven't found a concrete answer for my situation yet, so to speak. If I have an older 300 watt tube amp that only has 1/4 inch outs and banana plug outs, and my cabinet only has a Speakon, and I need to buy a cable anyways (I'm going to get a quality one made), should I get the one for the amp end with the banana plug or the 1/4 plug? I know the banana plug has more contact area, so I'm thinking of that being the better bet, but I hear they can pop out easier than 1/4 inch plugs while playing, etc. Thoughts? If I didn't find an exact thread that answers this, and you guys know of one, feel free to point me there. Much thanks!
Click to expand...

You have all the pro's n cons correct. It's up to you. I prefer speakon to either banana or bare wire on the ends (tinned). The benefit of the tinned wire being you can screw it down in the banana terminal so it won't pull out. Just personal pref. Though, all work well.
 
#57
Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it! Yeah the head is an old Ampeg SVT II Pro from before they started using Speakon connectors. It only has the banana plugs and 1/4" jacks. So you recommend just going with a 1/4" connector on the amp end of my speaker cable since this amp only runs 300 watts then? If so, I'll order one of those. I've never had an amp with banana plugs until picking this one up over the weekend, so I was just double-checking before I ordered a nice speaker cable. Thanks guys!
 
#59
58 posts and no one has mentioned that banana plugs are VERY EASY to connect backwards... (reverse polarity) This is one more reason why all my high power cabs have Speakons. I DIY changed out all the 1/4" and banana plugs for Speakons 3 years ago. An easy and inexpensive upgrade that I highly recommend.


Many incorrect posts here but LOTS of good reasons for upgrading,

And there just isn't any good reason to use anything but anymore. JMO
 

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