10,000 hours rule

[T-boneParish]

"[The 10,000 hour rule] is a metaphor for the extent of commitment that's necessary in cognitively complex fields."
-Malcolm Gladwell



In the discussion, he also talks about deliberate practice and the "quality" of the hours spent on learning something. Interesting 4-minute clip.

 

[Durham52]

I think the 10,000 hours idea is probably attractive to people drawn to the structured music school/ university learning system and certainly practice involving thought and effort will produce better results, in any field.

I'm pretty sure everyone has known someone in their lifetime who just seems to find things, or a particular thing, easy. The kid at little league who seems to progress quicker than every other kid, the kid who picks things up faster than everyone else.

There are plenty of skilled and innovative musicians who seemed to go from novice to outstanding very quickly, some people just seem to be wired for certain things way more than the average. Jimi Hendrix got a guitar at age 15 in 1961, by 1966 Chas Chandler has signed him and brought him to England and by 1967 he released his first smash hit album and redefined electric guitar playing. Eric Clapton got a guitar at 13 but it was so bad he gave up and started again at 15, by 16 he was playing in bands and at 18 joined The Yardbirds. Geddy Lee got an acoustic guitar at 14, was part of Rush by 17 and by the time he was 20, Rush were a full time professional band
doing their own material. Chris Squire took up bass at age 16 inspired to play music due to The Beatles, because he was tall a friend suggested the bass. Within 4 years he was part of Yes aged 20.

I don't know how many hours of practice and playing people like these squeezed into the few years between starting to play and becoming the musicians they are famous for being and they probably wouldn't have known either, not that it matters. Maybe none of those players could sit down in a studio and play from sheet music and they might struggle to play a set with jazz experts, but drive, innate ability and an innovative mind is surely what makes the difference between the majority of us and the ones who innovate and break new ground.

Depressing as it is for most of us, some people are just wired for it. Even Jaco, the player most often held aloft as the master here on Talkbass and the most mentioned, owes most of his bass god status to his mind and creativity, more that his undoubtedly massive amount of practice and playing time, as plenty of jazz bass players could probably point to more hours on the clock, but didn't come up with the ideas Jaco came up with.

Well that's my two cents worth anyway.

 

[Matty Koff]

IME 10,000 hours of developing bad habits is going to take 20,000 hours to correct >.<

 

[PWRL]

I think it sounds like an arbitrary amount of time because the curve is different for everyone. I'm more of an exponential learner, if that's the righr term, where I really only notice the most difference at the last 3rd of any period of intense practice. So for me, I would be more likely to fit into this rule of thumb.

 

[Medicine Man]

Some people are natural musical talents, but im not one of them. I have people try to tell me Im a naturally gifted musician all the time, but they simply dont understand the hours ive had to grind and study to sound like I am and overcome a distinct lack of natural talent. Ive played music since I was a small child, most days for at least a couple hours. It took me 20 years to develop perfect pitch. A friend of mine just has it, and is crushing gigs after 2 years. My brother in law has been playing guitar for a decade and struggles with cowboy chords. Its just about the journey, there is no magical formula. One truth: you will be better than you were before if you practice and study.

 

[Ric5]

Outliers (book) - Wikipedia

 

[Biggbass]

The one thing Elvis Costello does have is a great manager. H's everywhere and anywhere a musical event is happening or wherever there is a camera capturing live music. I am convinced he is the hardest working man in the music business.

 

[Ric5]

People who get good at something spend time to get that good. Musicians who get good enjoy practicing, people who find practice boring will not practice and will not get better.

 

[BassNugget]

In traditional Japanese martial arts, this is used a little bit differently. Let's say that you learn a technique. You practice it, sometimes incorrectly, sometime correctly. But your teacher corrects you and you start to do it right. You know you are doing it correctly because it is working on a resisting opponent. Cool. Now your teacher will say, "Once you do it correctly about 1,000 times, you know it here (points to head). Once you do it correctly 10,000 times, you know it here (gestures to body), and you no longer need to think. It becomes automatic in response and application. Your mind can think about other pressing issues."

That was what was taught to me. It was the repetition of the technique correctly, over and over that made the difference. Not any amount of hours, but just repetition. You can get 10,000 reps in 10 days if you want. My students and I once did 1,000 sword cuts a day for a month. Did not take long really.

 

[DrMole]

This is a trite observation on my part ; Does the job applicant have 15 years experience or one year of experience 15 times?

My playing leans far too heavily towards the latter.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Sounds like a bunch of bull to me. I've been playing over 45 years a still suck. My younger brother decided that he wanted to play guitar and less than a week later, he was and playing it very well. He then decided to play piano and with pretty much the same outcome. Everyone is different. So just not buying the premise.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

It's not about a specific number. It's the idea that it takes a lot of practice to become good. No amount of natural talent can replace actual practicing. I think all of our musical heroes have done it this way. And I don't think it was necessarily "practice" in their minds all the time they were doing it. But the musical talent/skills they develop is a result of the playing.

Sure, of course, but if it's not about a specific number, why even mention one? If the point is a more general one, that you have to put in the work--and not just aimless work but directed, focused, effective work--to get good at something--then ... yeah, that seems kind of obvious, for most of us mortals anyway. Who could object to that? But to hang a specific number out there as if it actually signifies something objectively true is IMO nonsensical.

EDIT: I see from a post above that Gladwell explains it as a "metaphor." As a metaphor, it makes sense; as any kind of real guide to how long acquiring skill should take, it really doesn't IMO. To me, dressing up an obvious truism like "You have to practice to acquire a skill" as some kind of "rule" that it takes a clever person to come up with is a bit silly.

 

[Wissen]

I see this as a corollary to another similar adage I've heard and taken to heart, which is "It takes about ten years to sound like you've been playing a decade."

I think there are ways to "hack" one's progress toward musical goals, and there are certainly ways to "waste" time.

However, they way I have always interpreted the 10k hour rule is to recognize the muscle memory and subconscious processes that are created that can only be developed by putting in the time.

When I was first learning to play bass, I could focus real hard on a technique or a song and in a short amount of time I had it "down". But I didn't feel like a bassist until about, well, ten years in.

I think there's a difference between acquiring skills and acquiring comfort and confidence. And the latter is where the 10 year/10k rule applied for me. I am about six years into my experience with other instruments, and I can see the same thing on the horizon. I can also see that I haven't gotten there yet.

 

[Mili]

yeah, that's simple logic. it's not enough but it's necessary.

 

[Ewo]

It's just a guess somebody--Malcolm Gladwell?--made at some point.

Yeah, that's my recollection of where it originated.

I figure the way this "rule" became accepted as "settled science" is a real good example of a verbal meme, y'know?

 

[JRA]

What do you think?

i think it's a good concept = makes the right point!

and that's how i accept the idea: it makes the point! "savants" seem to practice a lot.....

 

[RyanSaranich]

I did the math once about how much I had practiced in my lifetime and it came out to somewhere between 20k-30k hours. I don't think I'm the greatest player, but instead of harping on that I feel good or bad about my playing, I instead try to take the approach where I will always be a student. The people I know that have decided that they're done learning/taking lessons/practicing/whatever are the ones who never get ahead anymore.

 

[Mili]

10'000 hours of Practicing.
what is like practicing? just follow Janek Gwizdala and Tony Grey on Youtube.

 

[dave64o]

The point isn't a specific number of hours, at which time you immediately go from hack to virtuoso. The point is to put in the work needed to get there.

Yes, there are some "deviant smartypants" out there (to borrow a phrase from Scott Adams ) who don't need to put in a lot of work to become good at something. But, generally speaking for most people, there are no shortcuts.

No need for anyone's shorts to get all bunched up debating whether the real number is actually 9,999 hours or 10,001 hours.

 

[Vitrius Humor]

I was reading an interview with the original Elvis Costello bassist who mentioned this rule, and said that he was a firm believer in it.

Basically the rule is saying that any good musician will have spent at least this much time on playing/practicing his instrument before he becomes a good player.

What do you think?

If I was a well known bassist in a well known band, I would say all kinds of stupid sh*t just because I could! Going back to perhaps one of the bassists Bruce has been compared to for creativity, have you EVER heard Sir Paul mention anything about his OWN bass playing abilities and how he achieved them? And yeah, we ALL know about Hamburg....