16th note frustration

[citizenchris099]

Should start by saying that I play finger per fret / floating thumb / alternate index & ring. I stick w/these techniques as I have decidedly limited time to practice so I feel its best to focus on these approaches to make the best of my time (as apposed to switching it up all the time)
I've been practicing a variation of the bass line from Stevie Wonder's 'I Wish' (see attached). I seem to have difficulty w/the 16th note at the beginning of the second bar.
Essentially at faster tempos (100-110bpm etc..) my plucking hand "piles" up and things just don't work like I want. I'm thinking it has something to do w/how I'm alternating my plucking fingers ...which is to say if I start the phrase w/my index I'm a little better then w/ring.
I'm playing that Dm arpeggio across the three strings using a pinky finger minor pattern. I've tried a two string approach (index finger minor pattern) and it really isn't that much better plus i'm having to shift too much / fast.
any advice / help would be greatly appreciated

 

[vindibona1]

I'm curious as to why you're playing it in that key? But that's kind of irrelevant to your question. There are a couple things that complicate the situation. That Dm triad with a descending A→G#→G is complicating the line for the left hand. You're going to have to shift no matter what. But as you said, it's a variation. And you want to take it to 110bmp or faster when the Stevie plays it at 105. You're also adding the two 16th notes that don't exist in the original. So there are a number of issues at play. But assuming that this is what you want to do.

You've got to break it down so you can train yourself to play it cleanly. It's not that difficult. I'm just a new serious bass player and I didn't have issues with the 16ths, but figuring out the best way to play the descending variation. So here is how I would break it down...

Start (slowly) at those 16th notes, taking note as to the lead finger. You should be able to play it with any finger starting, but I prefer starting the 16ths with *I*. That allows I to cross over to the F and M crosses to the A. Practice that at about 50bpm to start, gradually increasing speed. If you have a strong preference and are much more comfortable doing the 16ths leading with I then you need to find a finger strategy so that the C# that leads into it is played with M.

So, start "DDFA" then expand to C# DDFA. Then C# DDFAG#. Then C# DDFAG#G. Then CC# DDFAG#GBCC#, etc. Then gradually increase the tempo as you get the whole lick in.

In other words, start by working out the main trouble spot. Then stragegize how to get into it so you're most comfortable playing through. Then expand to the entire lick. Then increase the speed. As an alternative, perhaps you should learn the lick as written in the original I Wish and get used to the shifting (which isn't that difficult) and then begin to add in the variation. I'd start by adding the descending line before kicking in the 16ths. Once your left knows where to go comfortably the right will learn to do it's thing pretty easily.

Good luck.

 

[two fingers]

Try it as dotted 16th followed by a 32nd note. Sort of "swingish". It kind of sounds in between to me anyway.

Also, don't rush funk and soul!!!!! EVER!!!! Not even during practice!!!!! The fastest way to remove the funk out if funk is to rush it. If anything, play in the back of the pocket. Let the drums DRAG you along. Play it with kind of an "I'll get there when I get there" attitude. This is LOST on most bass players. If you play most funk and soul songs, and your bass line is locked in with the kick so tight it sounds like one instrument, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think you have a technique issue. I think you have a feel issue. Relax. Just let the song roll out of you. Lay back. Feel more and think less. Don't practice it faster than the original. For for the love if all that is holy and righteous, don't ever PLAY it live too fast!!!

You think Stevie is concerned about whether or not his fingers are curled as if there's an egg in his hand so he has "proper technique" playing piano? (Prolly not. )

 

[citizenchris099]

I'm curious as to why you're playing it in that key? But that's kind of irrelevant to your question. There are a couple things that complicate the situation. That Dm triad with a descending A→G#→G is complicating the line for the left hand. You're going to have to shift no matter what. But as you said, it's a variation. And you want to take it to 110bmp or faster when the Stevie plays it at 105. You're also adding the two 16th notes that don't exist in the original. So there are a number of issues at play. But assuming that this is what you want to do.

You've got to break it down so you can train yourself to play it cleanly. It's not that difficult. I'm just a new serious bass player and I didn't have issues with the 16ths, but figuring out the best way to play the descending variation. So here is how I would break it down...

Start (slowly) at those 16th notes, taking note as to the lead finger. You should be able to play it with any finger starting, but I prefer starting the 16ths with *I*. That allows I to cross over to the F and M crosses to the A. Practice that at about 50bpm to start, gradually increasing speed. If you have a strong preference and are much more comfortable doing the 16ths leading with I then you need to find a finger strategy so that the C# that leads into it is played with M.

So, start "DDFA" then expand to C# DDFA. Then C# DDFAG#. Then C# DDFAG#G. Then CC# DDFAG#GBCC#, etc. Then gradually increase the tempo as you get the whole lick in.

In other words, start by working out the main trouble spot. Then stragegize how to get into it so you're most comfortable playing through. Then expand to the entire lick. Then increase the speed. As an alternative, perhaps you should learn the lick as written in the original I Wish and get used to the shifting (which isn't that difficult) and then begin to add in the variation. I'd start by adding the descending line before kicking in the 16ths. Once your left knows where to go comfortably the right will learn to do it's thing pretty easily.

Good luck.

the original doesn't have the 16h notes for sure...though I didn't want this to be an excuse for not solving my problem. Though the fact that the original isn't at 110 was lost on me...so I do thank you for pointing this out and for all of your advice.

Try it as dotted 16th followed by a 32nd note. Sort of "swingish". It kind of sounds in between to me anyway.

Also, don't rush funk and soul!!!!! EVER!!!! Not even during practice!!!!! The fastest way to remove the funk out if funk is to rush it. If anything, play in the back of the pocket. Let the drums DRAG you along. Play it with kind of an "I'll get there when I get there" attitude. This is LOST on most bass players. If you play most funk and soul songs, and your bass line is locked in with the kick so tight it sounds like one instrument, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think you have a technique issue. I think you have a feel issue. Relax. Just let the song roll out of you. Lay back. Feel more and think less. Don't practice it faster than the original. For for the love if all that is holy and righteous, don't ever PLAY it live too fast!!!

You think Stevie is concerned about whether or not his fingers are curled as if there's an egg in his hand so he has "proper technique" playing piano? (Prolly not. )

Dude...thank you! I really am feeling this advice. My gut has been telling me something akin to your advice the past few shed sessions. I need to chill out for sure...and as to the point above make my goal closer to the original bpm of 105.

 

[two fingers]

the original doesn't have the 16h notes for sure...though I didn't want this to be an excuse for not solving my problem. Though the fact that the original isn't at 110 was lost on me...so I do thank you for pointing this out and for all of your advice.



Dude...thank you! I really am feeling this advice. My gut has been telling me something akin to your advice the past few shed sessions. I need to chill out for sure...and as to the point above make my goal closer to the original bpm of 105.

I'm so glad you took my post the way it was intended. Part of me thought I wasn't being helful with a technique request.

 

[Lobster11]

Coupla thoughts:

First, I just listened to the original recording, and it sounded to me as if he throws in an extra note in a handful of places during the song, in different places within the riff. My guess is that these were just improvised when the spirit moved him, and I would approach learning the line the same way: I'd start by practicing the hell out of it with nothing but eighth notes until I could play it that way in my sleep; only then would I start working on tossing in an extra note here and there. My goal would be to be able to add the extra note anywhere, at any time. (One interesting practice goal might be to play the entire line with 16th notes, and then think about subtracting notes rather than adding them.)

Second, it sounds like your plucking fingers are "piling up" because you are more comfortable with playing an eighth-note groove starting with your index finger, so that all the downbeats are index finger and all the upbeats are middle finger (as if you were playing with a pick and using downstrokes on downbeats). As soon as you face a bar with an odd number of notes that fingering gets reversed, and when that happens your fingers get confused: They can't decide whether to continue alternating (which feels awkward) or try to get back to index-on-downbeats. I think the solution to this larger problem is to work on your plucking hand so that you are equally comfortable starting with either index or middle: Then you won't be thrown off when the pattern switches from one to the other. To do this, I'd spend some serious time practicing a bunch of songs I already know, but making sure to start with my middle finger instead of my index.

Hope that helps. This is a great bass line and I think I'll go work on it myself....

 

[enricogaletta]

Deep topic ,
tempo and 16th notes are a great combination to test you fingerstyle technique. The fact that you alternate your index and middle is already a good thing but you can do more, but first of all how do you usually play arpeggios and scales? Close or open fingering?
Close is when you have to play for example, a Cmaj7 arpeggio starting from the C on 3rdfret, so C(2) on A string, E(1) G(4) on D string and B(3) on G string; Open will be C(1) E(4) on A string G(2) on D string and B(1) on G string.
I'm asking you this because sometime we get used to play everything using the familiar way we know but than when you have to play a line like in this case, that has a particular selection of notes or rhythm that are away from your comfort playing than on medium and faster tempo your timing skills shows your technique lack.
In my opinion, in your case it's just a matter of fingering and vertical crossing and you could improve that by:
- playing some exercises to alternate your index/middle, a great one is the vertical crossing, in some of my previous post I attached a chart with them explained,
- try do play arpeggios and scales using both close and open fingering and mix them.
The purpose of these exercises are to alternate your index and middle BUT, one thing is to alternate on the same string, another is when you are forced to play each note on a different string and when the exercise make you to always switch your fingers sequence.
In other words you won't ever pay attention on what finger you start with and where.
If you need more help please let me know .
Let's groove!

 

[Robscott]

Try it as dotted 16th followed by a 32nd note. Sort of "swingish". It kind of sounds in between to me anyway.

Also, don't rush funk and soul!!!!! EVER!!!! Not even during practice!!!!! The fastest way to remove the funk out if funk is to rush it. If anything, play in the back of the pocket. Let the drums DRAG you along. Play it with kind of an "I'll get there when I get there" attitude. This is LOST on most bass players. If you play most funk and soul songs, and your bass line is locked in with the kick so tight it sounds like one instrument, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think you have a technique issue. I think you have a feel issue. Relax. Just let the song roll out of you. Lay back. Feel more and think less. Don't practice it faster than the original. For for the love if all that is holy and righteous, don't ever PLAY it live too fast!!!

You think Stevie is concerned about whether or not his fingers are curled as if there's an egg in his hand so he has "proper technique" playing piano? (Prolly not. )

Lots of great advice here about how to play funky - totally agree get lazy on the beat!! Practice it slow, cos if you practice faster but u can't play it that speed you are just practicing doing it wrong! Slow, then speed up to tempo. Last point, don't stress about which finger to start on, practice alternate fingers all over your scales until you don't even think about it, then come back to your songs and all of a sudden it's not an issue any more. Great song choice by the way - nail that, then start on Sir Duke, that'll get your fingers moving!!!