Double Bass 2022 Spirocore Challenge

[ctrlzjones]

So, now what? 2022 is over, I was a silent contestant, never laid hand on the precious red Spiros other than for playing and tuning (3 or 4 times during the whole year), hell, never even thought about doing so. I am still amazed how fast time runs since Covid struck the world, but I’m even more curious about what are the take-aways from that 2022 Spirocore Challenge. Do we have some sort of a winner or champion (other than the fabulous strings)? Any lessons learned (“never change a winning team”)? Some groundbreaking resolutions for 2023? Or what?

 

[Scott Lynch]

Lesson learned for me - focus more on music, less on gear.

Spiros just work for me. It’s why I’ve always returned to them between stints with other strings. The difference this time is that this year, it was just Spiros, and no other stints. The consistency fed other aspects of my playing, i.e. improving consistency in my sound, technique, etc. There is a certain kind of freedom in deciding to stop blaming problems I have on externals, and figure out what I need to change within myself to meet a particular goal.

I did change strings once, though - last week, I put on a new set of Spiro 3/4 lights to replace my 15 month or so old 4/4 mediums. The old set will be in the classifieds shortly.

 

[TroyK]

What did I learn?

I'm not sure that I'm feeling smart today, but maybe a couple of things.

1) Getting the gauge right is key. My bass seems to be especially finicky about this. With the whole 3/4 : 4/4 set thing, Spirocores have more effective gauges than any other string. It's confusing, but there are seemingly as many choices as any bass could possibly need to find the right one.

2) I've learned (better) how to use my eq than I have in the past. I think that I still have a long way to go on this point, but I made strides this year and should keep it as a 2023 goal.

3) Related to that is that the presence and complexity of Spirocores are what make them great and also what make them frustrating. But I don't think I would like going back to strings that try to sound like they think you want them to by muffling all of that. The sound changes every room and every night and I think part of getting a good sound is to learn to use and sometimes tame what you've got.

On the geeky / data side of it, the S42 Mittel A string, for some reason is tighter than the rest of that set. I think that's probably why some people bump the E up to Stark, it probably balances with the A better. 3885 Weich are kind of the lost gauge that I didn't have any experience with and I don't think we've talked about that much here. They seem closer to S42 Mittel than S42 Weich in feel and gauge. I suspect that you could use the S42 Mittel E with it and it MIGHT actually be the same string. I think they are the same gauge, maybe there is length difference. I didn't try that and don't see any real need, the E and A that come with the set are great and seem to play nicely with one another. I did prefer and S42 Mittel G with the 3885 Weich set. Very close on tension by the numbers and feel, but thicker under the fingers and I prefer the sound, though it is older than my 3885 Weich set, so it could be better burned in. Still prefer the feel better.

They are excellent strings. From a working-in-bars standpoint, they are extraordinary. No real downside to them that I can see.

...I put on a new set of Spiro 3/4 lights to replace my 15 month or so old 4/4 mediums...

What is your impression of the difference so far?

 

[Don Hergert]

So Troy, it sounds like you have a large collection of Spiros. How do you clearly identify the various S42 tensions from the various 3885 tensions? Since TI doesn't seem to make this distinction very clear, I'm guessing you have a way???

(I'd probably be marking the silk transitions with various colors of felt pen to help keep them straight.)

 

[TroyK]

The string tensions spreadsheet and a bit of trial and error on my end.

I bought the 3885 Weich new from our friends in NJ, so I'm sure that's what they are. I had old sets of S42 Mittel and S42 Weich. I had an old set of solo gauge years ago, not sure which ones.

The silk on the S42 Mittel G does come up much closer to the bridge than the silk on the 3885W.

Comparing S42 Weich to 3885 Weich, it's a pretty clear difference on the bass, especially the treble side strings. S42 are really wirey in a way that I loath. The difference between S42 Mittel and 3885 Weich is noticeable, but not nearly as big, except for tension when I get to the lower strings. My bass HATES tension and when I start to string it with S42 Mittel it actually makes me uncomfortable as I approach the E string. The whole bass feels like it's going to snap under pressure. Maybe and probably it isn't, but it feels like a dangerous amount of tension. Definitely not a happy bass. We've all played S42 Mittels on basses that don't feel like that, I've got a delicate flower, it would appear.

I do suspect that it is mostly the A string, but I'm happy with the 3885W E, so there's no reason to try anything else. It might be interesting to try the s42 D along side the G with 3885W E and A, but I think that's throwing solutions at a problem that I don't have.

 

[Scott Lynch]

What is your impression of the difference so far?

This is not my first time playing the 3/4 lights. I have bounced back between them and the 4/4 mediums a couple of times and have more or less been on the fence about which ones I like more.

First, much has been written on the difference in tension between the two sets, and the 3/4 lights are often reported as being some kind of middle ground between the 4/4 lights and 4/4 mediums. I've always found the 3/4 lights to be way more similar to the 4/4 mediums than the 4/4 lights, and the math confirms this for me. I've attached an image comparing the tension between the 3/4 lights and 4/4 mediums at the same scale length.

Notice that the 3/4 lights come up only about 4 lbs lighter than the 4/4 mediums, and that the G string on the 3/4 lights actually has more tension than the 4/4 mitt G at the same scale length. The 3/4 light A and D are a bit lighter, and the E is only the tiniest bit lighter than their respective 4/4 medium equivalents. I personally think this results in a better string to string balance and compensates for the "Weak E" issue that presents with the 4/4 Spiros. I find the 3/4 light G a shade fuller sounding on my bass, and correspondingly a bit less wiry sounding than the 4/4 medium G.

I'm sure the last paragraph sounds like a ringing endorsement for the 3/4 lights. The 4/4 mediums, however, in spite of the quirks that become apparent in comparison on my bass, are ones that I've played or so long that I have a rather deep familiarity with them and understanding of what they sound and feel like. They are the string that feels like home, so to speak. I'm sure if Thomastik stopped making the 3/4 Spiros, I would be just as happy throwing on a set of the 4/4 mediums and being done with it. I do think that the 3/4s are optimized to have a bit of an edge on certain basses, and for now, I'm really enjoying the new set of 3/4 lights I just put on.

 

[Jason Hollar]

I had Spiros on before the challenge and was appointed as a judge. I played along at home though.

I’ve been jumping back and forth and mixing S42 Weichs and Mittels for years on several instruments.

But this last year I made the move to the 3885 Weichs on my Upton Hawkes. The 3885 Weichs are an incredible string. Loud, punchy, flexible … but also, an inherent tension that requires a good bit of physical calibration to stay on top of it.

I ended up with quite a bit more electric bass gigs and unfortunately didn’t have as many upright opportunities although I certainly kept practicing as much as I could. I decided to mix the sets to feel the differences and ended up with the 3885 Weich E with S42 G,D,&A for some more flexibility on melodies & solos.

I think I’ll keep it this way for a while and will probably go back to all 3885s at some point.

But … if I find I experience any more elbow or wrist jankiness from overuse, I could see trying something a little softer like mixing in some Perpetuals.

 

[Sam Dingle]

What did I learn?

I'm not sure that I'm feeling smart today, but maybe a couple of things.

1) Getting the gauge right is key. My bass seems to be especially finicky about this. With the whole 3/4 : 4/4 set thing, Spirocores have more effective gauges than any other string. It's confusing, but there are seemingly as many choices as any bass could possibly need to find the right one.

2) I've learned (better) how to use my eq than I have in the past. I think that I still have a long way to go on this point, but I made strides this year and should keep it as a 2023 goal.

3) Related to that is that the presence and complexity of Spirocores are what make them great and also what make them frustrating. But I don't think I would like going back to strings that try to sound like they think you want them to by muffling all of that. The sound changes every room and every night and I think part of getting a good sound is to learn to use and sometimes tame what you've got.

On the geeky / data side of it, the S42 Mittel A string, for some reason is tighter than the rest of that set. I think that's probably why some people bump the E up to Stark, it probably balances with the A better. 3885 Weich are kind of the lost gauge that I didn't have any experience with and I don't think we've talked about that much here. They seem closer to S42 Mittel than S42 Weich in feel and gauge. I suspect that you could use the S42 Mittel E with it and it MIGHT actually be the same string. I think they are the same gauge, maybe there is length difference. I didn't try that and don't see any real need, the E and A that come with the set are great and seem to play nicely with one another. I did prefer and S42 Mittel G with the 3885 Weich set. Very close on tension by the numbers and feel, but thicker under the fingers and I prefer the sound, though it is older than my 3885 Weich set, so it could be better burned in. Still prefer the feel better.

They are excellent strings. From a working-in-bars standpoint, they are extraordinary. No real downside to them that I can see.




What is your impression of the difference so far?

Interesting to read that. As a judge on this thread I honestly didn't pay too much attention to it. Quick little life update and then to the point:

In 2019 I took a TA position at Florida State where I taught and worked towards a masters degree, and as we all know, 2020 hit. I had 3 weeks in person of my 2nd semester of grad school and then finished the entire thing online, minus teaching big band, playing in a combo (6 people spread across an entire orchestra room is a good time).

Prior to that I lived in New Orleans for school and then full time gigging on upright which was plagued by obsessive bass buying and string changes. I had bought a 7/8ths, 43.5 inch string length Juzek the year before grad school and settled on spirocore 4/4 mediums before Pirastro introduced the perpetuals. The perpetuals fixed all the little issues I had on that bass with the spiros, specifically I felt the E string was weaker than the rest of the set. Prior to having an extension put on the bass I had a stark e with medium ADG and that was great. The long medium E was fine but I always noticed some slight weakness compared to the A string. When I got my tester set of perpetuals I actually had just got in the mail a 3/4 sized weich ADG to try but never did. the 4/4 weich always was too weak to my ear on gigs where I would be unable to hear myself maybe because they didn't move the top of the bass. Perpetuals fixed all this. Reading your post, I'm wondering if the Medium long E and 3/4 weich ADG would be the ideal spiro set on my upright...maybe I'll try that one day, but I would wonder if the 3/4 set would fit on my bass.

The pandemic made me evaluate some things in my life and make some changes. Post grad school I moved to Nashville with hopes of playing electric bass more and being a sideman with singers. I joke that I had the urge to play songs rather than tunes. I've been super lucky to have found work since moving here. I'm a year and 3 months in at this point and last night played an upright gig for only the 4th time since moving.

Past month I have been shedding upright more and have thought about changing strings, maybe trying spiros again, but on the gig I realized that the bass felt familiar to me and I was able to not worry about it and focus on the music being played more. I don't really have the time to get used to a new setup and having that realization was freeing. Woke up today knowing the set on my bass would be on there next January.

The gauge discussion is a cool one when it comes to spirocores, and it is present with Perpetuals as well (stark DG vs normal). I know for myself that I would change strings sometimes on a monthly basis because I was dissatisfied with my playing and instead of spending hours in the practice room to make my sound fuller, I convinced myself throwing on Evah mediums would give me a warmer sound quicker.

Looking at this thread this past year every now and again and seeing what yall have done I think helps prove that. Nothing is better than getting into the shed and focusing on music. I cant imagine playing my electric bass and thinking "i'm not sounding great, let me change the brand of string, or gauge of string". I would adjust my playing or practice the music more.

This goes without saying, but paul chambers, ron carter, and ray brown didn't experiment with strings each month. they got a set, played it, and next time they needed a string change they adjusted.

I'm glad a lot of people found this challenge helpful, even though I stuck with perpetuals, and experimented for a week with a nylon string while teaching at a camp, I think the point of forgetting about gear and focusing on music was received.

My proposed new challenge is this: You've spent a year with the spirocores only challenge. Now stick to the same gauge you have on your bass for a full year.

 

[ctrlzjones]

What did I learn?

(...)

3) Related to that is that the presence and complexity of Spirocores are what make them great and also what make them frustrating. But I don't think I would like going back to strings that try to sound like they think you want them to by muffling all of that. The sound changes every room and every night and I think part of getting a good sound is to learn to use and sometimes tame what you've got.

You say you don't, but I find this one to be a pretty sophisticatad conclusion. Totally d'accord.

 

[Selim]

Whenever I hear another player’s reference to Spiro weichs (specifically 4/4 weichs) feeling and sounding “thin n wiry”, to me it just reinforces and validates the notion, repeated here many times, that string selection is mostly (almost entirely?) bass dependent. How else to explain such radical differences in tone and response from one bass to another? Troy’s experience on his bass of “thin n wiry” is warm, full, clear n rich on my bass.

So I’m gonna say that the strings on this bass ain’t going nowhere. Listen to your bass!

Happiest of new years greeting to all my bass brothers and sisters.

 

[Earl]

Whenever I hear another player’s reference to Spiro weichs (specifically 4/4 weichs) feeling and sounding “thin n wiry”, to me it just reinforces and validates the notion, repeated here many times, that string selection is mostly (almost entirely?) bass dependent. How else to explain such radical differences in tone and response from one bass to another? Troy’s experience on his bass of “thin n wiry” is warm, full, clear n rich on my bass.

So I’m gonna say that the strings on this bass ain’t going nowhere. Listen to your bass!

Happiest of new years greeting to all my bass brothers and sisters.

Maybe he was describing the feel under his fingers as 'thin and wiry'. I have had that experience.

 

[Selim]

Maybe he was describing the feel under his fingers as 'thin and wiry'. I have had that experience.

Yes I think he was, too. And I understand it. It took decades to realize that the bass I used for all those years with Spiros did not like Spiros at all, esp. weichs - thin and wiry!

I think that when you’re getting the sound and the response from a bass that you want, the brain (my brain anyway) sorta takes over and the fact that you’re playing on a thinner gauge and with a metal core are not noticeable. You’ve found the optimal total tension on the top? If I didn’t like the sound, they’d probably feel thin and wiry to me!

And this is coming from a guy who prefers a meaty string and likes the feel of synth core (using a slightly thicker 3/4 weich E does help, I must admit).

 

[Fat bob]

After dealing with some dead evah weichs on my Nye gig, Iam back on team spiro! Changed strings twice yesterday, first to weichs then to mittels. Man the mitts just have it! I really would like to try those 3885 weichs, but trying to save some dough. So clear and so much harmonic content, but when playing along with standards there is just so much fundamental, and the highs are canceled out but the other instruments. Also they just bounce back. The right hand can play so fast! Now just have to get the left to catch up. What a sigh of relief after those dead evah weichs, like someone else mentioned I was like a frog in boiling water with them. To the shed!

 

[rickwolff]

I joke that I had the urge to play songs rather than tunes.

Sam, thank you for that. This one line from your rather long (and interesting post) really jumped out at me.

I, too, have 'the urge' to play songs. I am very fortunate to have put together a group with excellent musicians and a wonderful singer. The four of us not only gel musically but get along very well with each other.

I also got a kick out of your line: "gigging on upright which was plagued by obsessive bass buying and string changes."

I can relate, but my obsessiveness extended to amps, mics, pickups, pre-amps etc. etc.

 

[giantviolin]

I know I’m a bit late to this thread but it seems like its full of Spiro experts ! I play a five stringed double bass mostly orchestrally currently set up with bel cantos and I’m looking to jump down the spiro rabbit hole. Do any of you recommend which tension would work best on a 5 stringer as its already got quite a bit of tension happening ? (I’d probably keep the BC’s on G and D) It seems like a sturdy instrument, and I mainly play with the fifth string tuned to C and I’m also not sure whether I ought to buy a B or C and wondering how that might play into tension. I’m assuming higher tension means its harder for the left hand? I have twigs for arms and already struggle quite a bit on the lower strings so I’d be keen to hear some advice about whether it might be a good idea or not. thanks !!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Don‘t mix 3/4 and 4/4 scale Spiros (or Superflexibles) unless you really know what you are doing. They have different tension on the same scale. The 3/4 Weich is close in tension to a 4/4 Mittel.
I recommend consulting my excel file in my Dropbox (link in signature and string sticky) for tension numbers on the same scale length.

Checking the website of Thomastik it seems some strings are no longer in the catalog and others are new (low B for 3/4). So check that first.

You can use a lighter 4/4 low B than the rest of the set for a C. With formulas.html in my Dropbox you can calculate the tension for a tuned up string. (Self-calculating if JavaScript is enabled.)
But for a low C# string you can temporarily change the -2 downturning for Solo strings to -1 to get the tension for a C# tuned to C. Don‘t forget to reset it to -2 afterwards and don‘t save any changes then.

You might consider a Solo 3/4 set tuned down to orchestra tuning with a 4/4 Solo low C# tuned to C for a lower tension set similar to 4/4 Weich but with a low C. But for orchestra work the strings might sink down too much by bow weight in loud passages so that the bow might grab a neighbor string too. Specially on a 5-string.
You can simulate that by downtuning your current Spiros. A halftone from Mittel to Weich, from Weich to downtuned Solos and for 3/4 to 4/4. Stark to Mittel are about a wholetone.
If the downtuned Solos are too low tension, a 4/4 Mittel set with a S40 low C (which is similar in tension to a 3/4 Weich set).

BTW, what is your string scale?

 

[TroyK]

I know I’m a bit late to this thread but it seems like its full of Spiro experts ! I play a five stringed double bass mostly orchestrally currently set up with bel cantos and I’m looking to jump down the spiro rabbit hole. Do any of you recommend which tension would work best on a 5 stringer as its already got quite a bit of tension happening ? (I’d probably keep the BC’s on G and D) It seems like a sturdy instrument, and I mainly play with the fifth string tuned to C and I’m also not sure whether I ought to buy a B or C and wondering how that might play into tension. I’m assuming higher tension means its harder for the left hand? I have twigs for arms and already struggle quite a bit on the lower strings so I’d be keen to hear some advice about whether it might be a good idea or not. thanks !!

In my experience, it's difficult if not impossible to tell someone what will be best on their bass remotely. But, Bel Cantos are closest to weichs in tension, so I'd look in that direction.

@DoubleMIDI 's excel spreadsheet is a good tool. Download it, measure your measure, figure out what tension EACH Belcanto is on your bass, then explore various Spirocore sets.

 

[mattj1stc]

Just saw this thread pop up again. Since I had to start a little later than others as I was waiting for my bass to arrive last year, I've now officially hit the one-year mark (and maybe a bit more). Still very happy with my S42s. I can understand why Spiros have been a popular metal string choice for so long. I'm likely to keep them on for the foreseeable future. I may be tempted to try the starks at some point, but that would be about it.

 

[Jason Hollar]

I’ve moved back to the full set of 3/4 Weichs. Wow - what a big bump in volume and low end as compared to the 4/4 Weichs.

Had to lower my action a bit but not too much.

 

[Inky13]

Just ordered a stark E. Kinda nervous about arco, but hoping for more power down low.