35" vs. 34" scale - downtuning (Schecter Apocalypse)

[Slade N]

my 2 cents- out of the four 5 strings tuned BEADG and four 4 strings tuned BEAD that i own/owned. 35 scale sounds best to me. The tone is very consistent across the neck, the B string sounds like it should. but its not a huge difference to me. The best B on a 34 to my ear is on my Stingray. I think string choice for a particular bass may be the biggest factor.

 

[BassUrges]

The root of the floppy B string is....they're too small (the strings). For equal tension, if you have a .095 E (on the small side for an E string), the diameter of B string that gives you the same tension is .130. For a .105 E, you need a .140 String makers have gotten used to selling equal increment sets (45-65-85-105). Extend that to a B string, and you have a .125 B string - that'll always be floppier than the .105 E, guaranteed. My string tension calculator says (Bass boomers in this example) that the 105 E has a tension of 42.2 pounds, the 125 B has a tension of 33.8 pounds. Why does the B feel floppy? Because it is! Strings tuned in 4ths need strings with a diameter ratio of 4/3 (going down) - not constant diameter increments for equal tension. It's simple Physics.

If a 35 inch bass gives you a less floppy B string, it has nothing to do with the stiffness of the neck. With the same construction, a long neck is less stiff. Floppy B's are a string problem, not a bass problem. Making a 35 inch scale bass to fix a string problem is a bandaid - I understand that bass makers did it because the string makers weren't making good B strings, but really it's the wrong approach.

This is a reasonable theoretical explanation, but I came to doubt it because of posts like the one that immediately follows yours.

 

[micguy]

This is a reasonable theoretical explanation, but I came to doubt it because of posts like the one that immediately follows yours.

I see a lot of anecdotal support for my post in that subsequent post. Regardless of anecdotal evidence one way or the other I'm sticking with me theoretical explanation - I studied Acoustical Physics, with an awful lot of work on the Physics of musical instruments in college. Unfortunately, knowing what I do doesn't always make chatting about it easy - sometimes it's frustrating communicate with those who don't know what you do on a particular topic. I also have put my money where my mouth is - my 5'er's are 34 inch scales; and I use B strings of appropriate gauges. They're fine on the floppiness/lack thereof parameter.

 

[BassUrges]

I see a lot of anecdotal support for my post in that subsequent post. Regardless of anecdotal evidence one way or the other I'm sticking with me theoretical explanation - I studied Acoustical Physics, with an awful lot of work on the Physics of musical instruments in college. Unfortunately, knowing what I do doesn't always make chatting about it easy - sometimes it's frustrating communicate with those who don't know what you do on a particular topic. I also have put my money where my mouth is - my 5'er's are 34 inch scales; and I use B strings of appropriate gauges. They're fine on the floppiness/lack thereof parameter.

My graduate work was in high-precision spectroscopy of metal vapors, so no doubt you have an advantage over me in discussing musical instruments. But while I do not disagree that heavier strings will increase tension, that was never in dispute.

Rather, the question is: why do people perceive a difference in floppiness on basses with identical 34” scales and standard string sets? What is the difference in THAT case?

 

[H2okie]

Now that I think about it, if I have two basses, one can be downtuned permanently, albeit in different tunings. So, it would never actually need to be tuned UP to E-Standard.
However, if I have two instruments, I'd think I'd want to keep them the same scale so as not to mess with my muscle memory.

When we first got the Mikro I simply could not play the thing, LOL!
Yes, I know there's a much smaller difference between a 35" & 34" scale vs. a 28-1/2" scale.

I'm less inclined to buy right now, the retailer is only going to give me a 7% discount,

Maybe I don't play that complicated stuff very often, but I routinely switch between a Cirrus 5 (35") multiple 4 and 5 string basses with 34" necks. I don't really notice the difference from a muscle memory standpoint. I do notice the string spacing more or neck width more.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

what was the 35" 4 string bass you were considering?

Apocalypse Series : C-4 Apocalypse EX

There are only a couple of demos out there, one TB member makes a 5-string sound absolutely amazing, but I think it's mostly the sound of the Tech21 dUg pre-amp.
There's another demo with a Mesa D800 & it doesn't sound any better than my current bass.
Maybe what I really want is the dUg pre-amp.

35" 4-strings are a little thin on the ground.

Some 4-string Ibanez BTBs are 35" scale, but yes they are rare.

 

[Ophiothrix]

Apocalypse Series : C-4 Apocalypse EX

I'd totally missed that one, thanks! Some tempting used deals out there by the looks of things, and interesting pickups. I'd mostly been looking at the F-Series and Tom Araya ESP/LTDs as potentials, but I've never been an enormous fan of spiky BC Rich style body shapes...

 

[NKBassman]

Rather, the question is: why do people perceive a difference in floppiness on basses with identical 34” scales and standard string sets? What is the difference in THAT case?

Different wood from a different tree assembled in a different plant on a different day by different people.

 

[TonyP-]

I commonly play on 35” scale 5 in standard and a half step down.

I also own a handful 34” scale 5s.

The longer scale does help no doubt and I prefer the 35. With that being said Condtruction helps a bit as well.

Those necks with a little more beef and a solid bridge helps.

I’m not a phyisics exspert like some in this thread, I just comment on my experiences.

 

[madmaskbass]

Logic tells me every time that string scale is important for downtuning. but i have two 35" basses and one 34" bass and the b string on the 34" bass kills the others completely and utterly. I actually think that this question needs to be far more specific to get a decent response. For my typical playstyle which is hard attack fingerstyle i much prefer the less tension gained by the shorter scale. i do run a .145T string to enable me to tune comfortably down to G# occasionally. If i play with a pick that changes and I much prefer the higher tension and .135 string of those basses but i also don't feel comfortable playing my 35" basses lower than A in this setup. I have had a .145T on my 35" and didn't feel the gain was worth the effort and cost. honestly i try hard to balance string tension with custom gauges. generally i like to tune ADADGC. I honestly don't get all of the reasons this occurs i have been lately fine tuning my basses setups to best suit the bass and find that lower action for hard fingerstyle and higher action for picking is the best mix...i used to just fix everything at lowest possible setting i could get without silly buzz but it is too hard to swap between styles. anyway big ramble but this is my experience and may help someone

 

[higain617]

Thunderbirds are fairly popular for down-tuning due to the long headstock.

 

[Sid Fang]

Rather, the question is: why do people perceive a difference in floppiness on basses with identical 34” scales and standard string sets? What is the difference in THAT case?

Because there's more to a bass design than the scale. For example, in the case of Musicman556's anecdote, I note that the 34" scale bass with the non-floppy B has a string tree on the headstock for ALL of the strings, creating a relatively sharp break angle behind the brass nut for the B-string. The Ray35 that compares unfavorably has no tree for the B string, and what looks like a "bone" nut (which I suspect makes less difference than the angle, but, hey, this is science). I would intuitively expect the amount of string between tuner/tree and nut and between end and bridge to have an impact on "floppiness", though perhaps a very small one.

Mostly it really should be a question of the right string for the tuning.

 

[DistortedBass]

Apocalypse Series : C-4 Apocalypse EX

View attachment 3610486

There are only a couple of demos out there, one TB member makes a 5-string sound absolutely amazing, but I think it's mostly the sound of the Tech21 dUg pre-amp.
There's another demo with a Mesa D800 & it doesn't sound any better than my current bass.
Maybe what I really want is the dUg pre-amp.




Some 4-string Ibanez BTBs are 35" scale, but yes they are rare.

Thanks- and it doesn't have to do with the Dug. It's just a good sounding bass!

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I've already proven in my home that it WAS the Pinnick preamp, as well as watching another demo where a different bass with different pickups sounds almost exactly the same through the Pinnick preamp.

I bought one & it was nice, but it wasn't as aggressive-sounding as my current #1 bass, so I returned it.
Sure it sounds great, but it's not good enough to be my Numero Uno.
TBH I should have known better when I heard the D800 demo, or just from my past experience with Schecter pickups.

Right now what I'd like to hear is my SR1800E through the Pinnick pre-amp, but I can get close enough on my hybrid combo amp.

 

[Stevorebob]

I've already proven in my home that it WAS the Pinnick preamp, as well as watching another demo where a different bass with different pickups sounds almost exactly the same through the Pinnick preamp.

I bought one & it was nice, but it wasn't as aggressive-sounding as my current #1 bass, so I returned it.
Sure it sounds great, but it's not good enough to be my Numero Uno.
TBH I should have known better when I heard the D800 demo, or just from my past experience with Schecter pickups.

Right now what I'd like to hear is my SR1800E through the Pinnick pre-amp, but I can get close enough on my hybrid combo amp.

I think you need multiples of the SR1800 to have all your tunings handy. They’re pretty, too.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

My alt-tuning bass is a GSR100EX:

Ibanez pair

• Killed_by_Death
• Sep 21, 2019
• 1
• outdoors

SR1800E & GSR100EXMOL

That Tech21 pre-amp is not transparent, even Pinnick says it's scooped to mimic bi-amping.

 

[Killed_by_Death]

I'm not going to let it go that the Pinnick preamp is one of the least transparent preamps I know of, but that's not what this post is about.
I had been wondering which is stiffer, Ti or graphite, so I did this stiffness experiment.

the 34" scale bass with the non-floppy B has a string tree on the headstock for ALL of the strings, creating a relatively sharp break angle behind the brass nut for the B-string. The Ray35 that compares unfavorably has no tree for the B string

The break-angle does make a difference, which is why I'm certain that angled headstocks are better for down-tuning, but a stiff neck helps a lot, as well:

 

[Sapatown]

So if I have a 35 scale bass, I dont really need ticker strings? I have a Dunable Yeti 35" and had a awful banana neck, got it fixed and the truss rod is maxed. The luthier recommended to use 110 strings on it from now.

I have always used 115 - 90 -75 - 50 on it.

I will try to set it up with 110 instead of the 115.

 

[E2942]

I'm perplexed that anyone who has EVER heard a Signature preamp from Tech 21 could claim they're transparent.
too funny!