37" F#0 intonation

[Ivanickson]

unfortunately those are exactly the two things you likely need to avoid when playing a string that's essentially too short and too loose for the desired pitch

to get that "slow", loose string to behave you're going to have to stick to the lower frets and hit it kind of gently

as for tuning and intonation, you're running into something piano tuners have to deal with, namely how do you "tune" a string when the string is not actually in tune with itself? when the string is too loose and too thick for a given vibrating length, the upper harmonics go sharp compared to the fundamental and it gets an overall kind of "sour" or "tubby" sort of tone

piano tuners deal with this (especially on little upright pianos) by "stretch" tuning to the higher harmonics of the lower strings, which will tend to be sharper than the fundamentals but also easier to hear

try chiming a high harmonic off that string if you can get it to cooperate, say at the 5th fret, then tuning that to be in tune; you'll likely end up with the fundamental pitch being flat, but those upper harmonics are all you really hear from a super-low string like that anyway

It was really interesting to hear about this experience and these ideas. Am I understanding it correctly that for very low frequencies, accuracy of the fundamental is less important, and what really matters is mass and well-behaved upper harmonics?

 

[walterw]

Am I understanding it correctly that for very low frequencies, accuracy of the fundamental is less important, and what really matters is mass and well-behaved upper harmonics?

that’s how i understand it

the dirty little secret is that not only will bass amps and PA systems and home stereos not actually reproduce that 23 whatever Hz frequency, the string itself barely generates it to begin with!

the string mostly just creates the upper harmonics that correspond to that pitch and our brains fill in the missing fundamental

 

[Koshchei]

Just for example, listen to Spiritbox - Circle With Me – you can hear the F#0 solo bass. Or check out Periphery - Stranger Things. It's nothing magical, the bass is just doing its job.

Djenty. Spiritbox was my kid's first concert (he was 8; we were there to see Ghost, but they were a triple bill with Mastodon and Spiritbox). Good gig.

I suspect you're hearing the octave above more than the F#,, though. The fundamental literally sounds like an idling diesel engine if you can hear it at all (it's 3.125Hz above the lowest note you can hear when your hearing is at its peak). Pretty awful and unmusical; If I had my druthers, I'd take deep over quasi-inaudible and farty any day.

Am I understanding it correctly that for very low frequencies, accuracy of the fundamental is less important, and what really matters is mass and well-behaved upper harmonics?

At 37", there's no way you're getting overtones that play nicely with the fundamental. Good string inharmonicity is just not possible given the thickness of the core and wraps; it's just too stiff1. If you're thinking harmonics, cut out the middle man just play an octave higher, where the harmonic is the fundamental and you aren't having to make devil's pact compromises with wonky physics.

So, to put it another way: very low frequencies at suboptimal vibrating/air column lengths are inherently compromised and will never sound in tune. On a piano (like a Bosendorfer 290), at least, those notes aren't often used. On the organ example I posted above, the principals are 32 feet tall and about as wide as a tree trunk. beyond dust accumulation, that's an F#,, that comes with no compromises.

1- this is why Dogal Hellborg strings sound so amazing; they have a stranded core, so they aren't stiff at all.

 

[walterw]

this is why Dogal Hellborg strings sound so amazing; they have a stranded core, so they aren't stiff at all.

i was just pondering that idea, stranded core electric bass strings for more flexibility, leading to truer harmonics at low tensions and short scale lengths

the other imaginary perfect bass string in my head was one that was an actual chain instead of a string, something like one of those jewelry snake chain necklaces but somehow strong enough to be a bass string and not costing a thousand dollars. if that existed it would have plenty of mass but essentially zero stiffness, creating perfect harmonics at least up until the higher sine waves got close to the size of the individual links

 

[Ivanickson]

At 37", there's no way you're getting overtones that play nicely with the fundamental. Good string inharmonicity is just not possible given the thickness of the core and wraps; it's just too stiff1. If you're thinking harmonics, cut out the middle man just play an octave higher, where the harmonic is the fundamental and you aren't having to make devil's pact compromises with wonky physics.

The band Erra plays F#1, but they tune to drop B, so bassist is forced to come up with a completely different fingering, this is just a different style of composing. It's ok, when you plays some elegant prog, but in modern metalcore or prog metalcore with 0-0-0-0, or 0-17-19-0-12-14-0, it can come off a bit ridiculous and less massive.

 

[Koshchei]

The band Erra plays F#1, but they tune to drop B, so bassist is forced to come up with a completely different fingering, this is just a different style of composing. It's ok, when you plays some elegant prog, but in modern metalcore or prog metalcore with 0-0-0-0, or 0-17-19-0-12-14-0, it can come off a bit ridiculous and less massive.

Based on the way you describe it, it sounds a lot like these bands don't know anything at all about arrangement or harmony. In the metal realm, Alkaloid are absolute masters of this. It helps that Morean is a legit classical composer as well.



Also, it'd be helpful to see the rest of the arrangement to understand whether the bass line you cite makes sense. Of course, it'd probably sound better (and cleaner) as:

----------------
---7-9----------
----------7-9---
-0-----0------0-

Which isn't that ridiculous to my eye, harmonically.

 

[Ivanickson]

Also, it'd be helpful to see the rest of the arrangement to understand whether the bass line you cite makes sense. Of course, it'd probably sound better (and cleaner) as:
----------------
---7-9----------
----------7-9---
-0-----0------0-

I was talking about this track as an example. The guitar part uses hammer-ons through an open string, like this:

--------19-------14----
------------------------
--0-17-----0-12----0--

It gives you more speed, because you don’t need to pick every note, and it’s much more convenient than your option, to be honest. The bass in this track doesn’t play the same notes, it only plays accents, but I have some parts with fingerings like this, with a lot of hammer-ons, legato, and pull-offs to the open string, to reduce right-hand effort.

(Turn down the volume a bit before play)

 

[Koshchei]

I was talking about this track as an example. The guitar part uses hammer-ons through an open string, like this:

--------19-------14----
------------------------
--0-17-----0-12----0--

It gives you more speed, because you don’t need to pick every note, and it’s much more convenient than your option, to be honest. The bass in this track doesn’t play the same notes, it only plays accents, but I have some parts with fingerings like this, with a lot of hammer-ons, legato, and pull-offs to the open string, to reduce right-hand effort.

(Turn down the volume a bit before play)

I'd probably tap those higher notes if skipping strings tbh (index and ring). Better attack, and on|off sustain, which suits the music. Plus it could be played as fast as you could possibly want.

Not much of a fan of the music - I'm getting old though. Wilderun, Opeth, and Ihsahn are more my speed if we're talking about metal. Animals as Leaders and Periphery dropped their bombs a long time ago, and I'm kind of bored with that sound.

 

[Root 5]

Break angles look good. But with a string that thick intonation is going to be iffy at best.

Who cares! Humans can barely hear an F#0 anyway!

 

[Root 5]

Many years ago I bought a 7 string
bass guitar, the Bill Dickens model,
from Conklin guitars and basses.
I had watched a DVD of a Cuban
Timba band, and it sounded like
the bass player played a low F#,
below the low B of a 5 or 6 string bass.
I called Conklin and actually spoke to
Bill Conklin. They offered the low F#
string (they still have a web site
www.conklinguitars.com), but
he recommended not to buy it,
saying it would sound muddy and
ill-defined.

BTW, the Cuban bassist was playing
through a cheap Peavey bass amp.
Go figure…

Looking at the web site today,
it looks like they still offer two
versions of the low F#.
I recommend calling them, as
a lot has changed over the years.

On my Steinway Model B grand, 6’11”,
the low B, that corresponds to the
5 string bass guitar low B,
string length is a little over 60” from tuning peg to bridge. The F# below that doesn’t exist (maybe it’s present on a
Bosendorfer.)

The Bösendorfer extended range pianos go to the bowels of hell
To C0 !