37" F#0 intonation

[Ivanickson]

Hi gentlemen!
I’ve just got my first 37", an Ibanez BTB805MS, and I really like this instrument. It’s comfortable, sounds great, and has a lot of useful features. I’ve also installed a rather compromise string set: Newtone .160, aiming to play in Drop F#0. However, I can’t quite figure out how to get the 5th string to intonate properly.

I’ve set the neck fairly straight, raised the string height to about 3 mm so I can play above the 12th fret without notes choking out, and adjusted the intonation roughly using both the 0/12 and 5/17 fret methods. The open string sounds flatter compared to fretted notes, but I understand this is probably unavoidable since the string stretches when fretted. I’ve also accepted that I seemingly need to tune the string about 15 cents flat when playing with an aggressive pick attack.

However, I’ve run into another unexpected issue: when I tune the string using a tuner, it sounds noticeably sharp by ear, seemingly due to some upper harmonics dominating the perceived pitch.

Is this a normal situation in such low tunings with thick strings? Has anyone experienced something similar, and are there any tricks or best practices that make tuning easier in these cases?

 

[Turnaround]

Did you set the witness points on the strings at the nut and the bridge?

 

[Ivanickson]

Did you set the witness points on the strings at the nut and the bridge?

I tried, but I’m not sure about the nut, I don’t really know how low I can cut it without introducing buzz. I would prefer this instrument not to have a zero fret, I know a lot of people hate them.

Spoiler: Photoes

 

[Jeff Scott]

Does the bridge have enough intonation adjustment range to handle intonating such a large gauge string?

 

[Ivanickson]

Does the bridge have enough intonation adjustment range to handle intonating such a large gauge string?

Of course, this is a 37" scale. Nolly was using .175 strings, or something like that, as far as I remember, just like the guys from Spiritbox (.169) and Northlane (.176). Actually, a .160 string is a bit soft for this tuning, but it's still pretty thick, especially when I play above the 12th fret, so some of my problems can be explained by those facts.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Down that low, you may be having trouble with your tuner. Its little computer brain is getting confused by what it's hearing, and it may be averaging out the fundamental and some slow overtones.

You may need to fine tune it by ear, listening to it through the amp. Adjust it so it sounds right to you, in relation to other notes that you usually play. Then check it with the tuner and see what it says. Remember that number of how many cents off it is. Then you can use the tuner to reset it later.

 

[el murdoque]

15 cents off at F#0 is essentially on pitch.

Nonetheless, did you check the nut? IIRC, these basses come BEADG, and expect something in the ballpark of .130 in the slot, so your .160 might be too big for the slot and it needs to be filed?

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I'd try tuning it normally, your drop tuning is stressing your intonation and I bet maxing out your bridge saddle adjustment.

Also check your nut, that set is significantly larger and may be pinching at the nut as el murdoque mentioned.

 

[Turnaround]

Break angles look good. But with a string that thick intonation is going to be iffy at best.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Of course, this is a 37" scale. Nolly was using .175 strings, or something like that, as far as I remember, just like the guys from Spiritbox (.169) and Northlane (.176). Actually, a .160 string is a bit soft for this tuning, but it's still pretty thick, especially when I play above the 12th fret, so some of my problems can be explained by those facts.

I suspect this is your issue.

I’ve never tried to tune to F# on a 37” but I have tried to drop tune a B to an A on a 34” without changing string gauge and it didn’t work out for me, just not enough tension on the string.

Also, don’t forget that with that much mass you have to account not just for the stability of the string along its speaking length, but how strong the magnetic pull from the pickups is - try raising the action and/or lowering the pickups to get them further away from each other.

 

[Ivanickson]

15 cents off at F#0 is essentially on pitch.

Nonetheless, did you check the nut? IIRC, these basses come BEADG, and expect something in the ballpark of .130 in the slot, so your .160 might be too big for the slot and it needs to be filed?

Yes, the nut slot is cut correctly for a .160 string. I’ll try to cut it a bit deeper to increase the break angle.

BTW, I’m getting more stable results when I place the tuner after Parallax, leave only the lows, and blend more toward the neck pickup.

It seems that tunings this low require a lot of compromises, but at least this approach works.

 

[Koshchei]

You're not going to like this, but if you want it to sound cleanly and without the pitch wandering, you'll need a scale length of 64" at a minimum. Anything less, and you're into weird issue territory (also, can your amp and cabinet even handle the pitch?) unless you don't care about the fundamental at all, in which case just play it an octave up.

Honestly though, the frequency of the F#,, is 23.125Hz (into subcontra), which is "helicopter landing" territory. It's distracting more than anything unless you're playing it on an instrument voiced for it, like a proper flue pipe organ:



Play with good headphones that support those low frequencies. A good stereo will rattle the hell out of your house.

 

[bass player 53]

Many years ago I bought a 7 string
bass guitar, the Bill Dickens model,
from Conklin guitars and basses.
I had watched a DVD of a Cuban
Timba band, and it sounded like
the bass player played a low F#,
below the low B of a 5 or 6 string bass.
I called Conklin and actually spoke to
Bill Conklin. They offered the low F#
string (they still have a web site
www.conklinguitars.com), but
he recommended not to buy it,
saying it would sound muddy and
ill-defined.

BTW, the Cuban bassist was playing
through a cheap Peavey bass amp.
Go figure…

Looking at the web site today,
it looks like they still offer two
versions of the low F#.
I recommend calling them, as
a lot has changed over the years.

On my Steinway Model B grand, 6’11”,
the low B, that corresponds to the
5 string bass guitar low B,
string length is a little over 60” from tuning peg to bridge. The F# below that doesn’t exist (maybe it’s present on a
Bosendorfer.)

 

[hvymetallurgist]

Have had similar issues in the past, more often than not it's tuner-related as others have floated. At a certain point making adjustments by ear ends up being the best option.

Tangential to the OG question so feel free to ignore, but I play subterranean tunings all the time and IME, if I need to go below G# thru an amp it's time to go up an octave. And getting the G# sounding good enough for me required some expensive kit on the cab front to accomplish. I'm sure with enough money and effort lower tuning can be done passably, but after a couple years of putzing and trial and error I've stopped trying to go lower. Less about the instrument and setup (I have an AMAZING sounding G#F#BE setup on a 34" scale 4-string) and more about the cab's ability to reproduce it. Thru good cans, lower can sound amazing but with an amp it's tough sledding.

 

[Ivanickson]

Have had similar issues in the past, more often than not it's tuner-related as others have floated. At a certain point making adjustments by ear ends up being the best option.

Tangential to the OG question so feel free to ignore, but I play subterranean tunings all the time and IME, if I need to go below G# thru an amp it's time to go up an octave. And getting the G# sounding good enough for me required some expensive kit on the cab front to accomplish. I'm sure with enough money and effort lower tuning can be done passably, but after a couple years of putzing and trial and error I've stopped trying to go lower. Less about the instrument and setup (I have an AMAZING sounding G#F#BE setup on a 34" scale 4-string) and more about the cab's ability to reproduce it. Thru good cans, lower can sound amazing but with an amp it's tough sledding.

Makes sense, but usually the guys I listen to go an octave up from D# or maybe E. Drop F# is a bit of an inconvenient tuning, because F#0 is low enough to cause sound issues, while F#1 is actually higher than standard 4-string tuning, with all the baggage.
In a mix it doesn’t really matter though - bass doesn’t have to sound good solo, it doesn't even have that 20-40hz trash, it just needs to provide certain frequencies and a bit of that hard “piano string” character.

 

[Alphaman]

You should be able to get the low F# intonation set on a 37” scale bass. Dingwalls do it all the time with a 0.160 multi scale string. Before making any permanent changes to the bass, you should try another reputable tuner and another reputable string brand. Dingwall multi scale strings work great. I think I had to buy a separate 0.160 Dingwall string.

 

[aff]

I have 806ms and tried .170 F# once.
It’s so heavy it goes sharp under its’ own weight if you adjust in playing position, and of course it gets pulled by magnets if you adjust intonation while bass laying on the back.
Pitch literally moves as you move bass around depending on external forces/acceleration applied to the string.
I have a tuner that has enough accuracy and can show it (st-300).

Try using harmonics to tune/intonate, not open string.

Still sounded like complete ass , took it off and play beadgc. At least with zero fret you don’t need to change the nut.

 

[Koshchei]

I have 806ms and tried .170 F# once.
It’s so heavy it goes sharp under its’ own weight if you adjust in playing position, and of course it gets pulled by magnets if you adjust intonation while bass laying on the back.
Pitch literally moves as you move bass around depending on external forces/acceleration applied to the string.
I have a tuner that has enough accuracy and can show it (st-300).

Try using harmonics to tune/intonate, not open string.

Still sounded like complete ass , took it off and play beadgc. At least with zero fret you don’t need to change the nut.

At a certain point, I suspect that they're actually after deepness more than they are lower pitch. It's a pity that double bass isn't "metal" enough, because you can feel an arco section of those in a way that no electric bass can ever come close to.

But yeah, I have no idea why somebody would want to play a note where the audible beating it produces can clash with the rhythm of the song.

 

[walterw]

I’ve set the neck fairly straight, raised the string height to about 3 mm so I can play above the 12th fret without notes choking out, and adjusted the intonation roughly using both the 0/12 and 5/17 fret methods. The open string sounds flatter compared to fretted notes, but I understand this is probably unavoidable since the string stretches when fretted. I’ve also accepted that I seemingly need to tune the string about 15 cents flat when playing with an aggressive pick attack.

unfortunately those are exactly the two things you likely need to avoid when playing a string that's essentially too short and too loose for the desired pitch

to get that "slow", loose string to behave you're going to have to stick to the lower frets and hit it kind of gently

as for tuning and intonation, you're running into something piano tuners have to deal with, namely how do you "tune" a string when the string is not actually in tune with itself? when the string is too loose and too thick for a given vibrating length, the upper harmonics go sharp compared to the fundamental and it gets an overall kind of "sour" or "tubby" sort of tone

piano tuners deal with this (especially on little upright pianos) by "stretch" tuning to the higher harmonics of the lower strings, which will tend to be sharper than the fundamentals but also easier to hear

try chiming a high harmonic off that string if you can get it to cooperate, say at the 5th fret, then tuning that to be in tune; you'll likely end up with the fundamental pitch being flat, but those upper harmonics are all you really hear from a super-low string like that anyway

 

[Ivanickson]

At a certain point, I suspect that they're actually after deepness more than they are lower pitch. It's a pity that double bass isn't "metal" enough, because you can feel an arco section of those in a way that no electric bass can ever come close to.

But yeah, I have no idea why somebody would want to play a note where the audible beating it produces can clash with the rhythm of the song.

Just for example, listen to Spiritbox - Circle With Me – you can hear the F#0 solo bass. Or check out Periphery - Stranger Things. It's nothing magical, the bass is just doing its job.