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400+, SVT, New Mesa, Power rating vs. spl output.

J

JimWasHere

Sep 8, 2010
715
5
Portland, OR
#1
I've heard a lot about how the 400+ didn't quite have the stones it was rated for. I've played one a few times, but never owned it. Seemed a touch loud. Same with SVTs, played them but not owned them. The amp I do own... Right now I'm running one side of a Simulstereo at 95 watts, and it's loud. I cannot stress it with a 410 cab. I made a 410HLF fart out with it last month. It seems to be as much as an SVT would be with the same cab. The guys at GC were a bit annoyed by that :p

Yesterday I was at the store, in the loud room A/Bing between an SVT-VR and a BDDI/Power amp, running them both as loud as I could with 810 cabs. I came home and played with my 95 watts and 410, and the difference in volume was not noticeable. Similar sized rooms, same bass. I will admit though, I was on the verge of all my 410 will do, whereas the 810 cabs were just starting to wake up.

So what gives? Especially with Mesa getting ready to drop an even bigger pile of all tube iron in our laps?
 
#2
What's up is it takes 10x the power to be twice as loud. That's a matter of definition of the loudness dB scale, no getting around it.

Add in the fact you were a/b testing in a different room at some different time. No valid conclusion can be drawn about the relative volume of the 95W 4x10 rig vs the SVT rig.
 
#3
Thanks for telling me stuff I already knew.

So now that we aren't poking at the little holes that I already knew were there, the question is still there. There should be a significant volume difference, especially considering the doubling of the drivers, and there did not seem to be. Is there some other reason why so little a difference?
 
#7
Downunderwonder said:
You're welcome.
Click to expand...

I love TB :D

chaosMK said:
What is your question? Are you concerned that ~300w tube amps don't deliver significantly more than one side of your Simulstereo?
Click to expand...

Not so much concerned as curious if there's a difference in the rating, or something like that.

jelwood said:
You can have relatively quiet 810 cabs if they are sealed. Your 410 might be ported, which in general produces a much louder cabinet. So yes it is possible that your 410 is just louder than the 810s?
Click to expand...

That makes sense, I suppose. is 410HLF = to 810E? It would be along those lines, if that's the case. Of course factoring in minor differences in the rooms and all that other unscientific stuff.

I'm still kinda wondering though... It certainly seems as if (A/B not possible this week) 95 is bigger than 300. Guess I'll have to try it one of these days.
 
#8
i realize that it may have not seemed like a big in volume difference to you, but with quite of time passing between listening to them, being in a completely different environment (ambient noise levels, room acoustics etc) and different cabinets (with different sensitivity ratings), i know that i couldn't consider it an example of any amp's output power for comparison.

i know that you already know that (so please don't take offense), but due to all of those circumstances and differences, i really don't understand the question.
 
#11
johnk_10 said:
i realize that it may have not seemed like a big in volume difference to you, but with quite of time passing between listening to them, being in a completely different environment (ambient noise levels, room acoustics etc) and different cabinets (with different sensitivity ratings), i know that i couldn't consider it an example of any amp's output power for comparison.

i know that you already know that (so please don't take offense), but due to all of those circumstances and differences, i really don't understand the question.
Click to expand...

+1 to this an Downunderwonder's helpful comments.

One never knows how much someone else knows, so relevant and complete information is helpful. These threads stand as resources, too, so I think it's great when answers include the whys and wherefores as well as the specific bit od info.
 
#12
I think the size of the rooms may have something to do with it. Unless you are far a distance from your amp all you are not hearing what is projected. At practice I stand at least 15 feet away from everyone's amps so I can actually hear them together. One day one of my guitards asks me why I "stand all the way over there", and I get him to come over. His response? "Holy $hit I'm way louder than everyone else!"

JimWasHere said:
I've heard a lot about how the 400+ didn't quite have the stones it was rated for. I've played one a few times, but never owned it. Seemed a touch loud. Same with SVTs, played them but not owned them. The amp I do own... Right now I'm running one side of a Simulstereo at 95 watts, and it's loud. I cannot stress it with a 410 cab. I made a 410HLF fart out with it last month. It seems to be as much as an SVT would be with the same cab. The guys at GC were a bit annoyed by that :p

Yesterday I was at the store, in the loud room A/Bing between an SVT-VR and a BDDI/Power amp, running them both as loud as I could with 810 cabs. I came home and played with my 95 watts and 410, and the difference in volume was not noticeable. Similar sized rooms, same bass. I will admit though, I was on the verge of all my 410 will do, whereas the 810 cabs were just starting to wake up.

So what gives? Especially with Mesa getting ready to drop an even bigger pile of all tube iron in our laps?
Click to expand...
 
#14
georgestrings said:
Was thinking the same thing...


- georgestrings
Click to expand...

I may have been a touch harsh there... :p Sorry, Downunderwonder.

Now that I'm not tired, and have coffee in my hand, I'll fix my question. Other than the obvious room size and where I'm standing type stuff, which I'm taking into account, is there either a difference possible in how the thing is rated, or in how the cabs are reproducing it?
 
#15
Already been said, but you've got too many other variables going on to justify pointing the finger at amp wattage ratings. Using an SPL meter and the same cab would help. The SPL meter apps in my smart phone have come in handy for casual testing like this. Even with same cab, perceived loudness is still influenced by any baked-in preamp voicing.
 
#16
JimWasHere said:
I may have been a touch harsh there... :p Sorry, Downunderwonder.

Now that I'm not tired, and have coffee in my hand, I'll fix my question. Other than the obvious room size and where I'm standing type stuff, which I'm taking into account, is there either a difference possible in how the thing is rated, or in how the cabs are reproducing it?
Click to expand...

I think if you want the best comparison, get your head and 410 into the same room as the VR and 810. Set up your head and 410 and push it to where you were at home. Then disconnect the 410 and hook up the 810. Dont change anything else at all and play. Do the same with the VR. This should give you a better idea. Really the only way to do a shoot out is two heads with the same cab, or one head with two cabs.

The other thing to consider is that the cabs are tuned differently. Are they sealed or ported? That will change the low end response, and may be effecting your perceived SPL.
 
#17
JimWasHere said:
..........Other than the obvious room size and where I'm standing type stuff, which I'm taking into account, is there either a difference possible in how the thing is rated, or in how the cabs are reproducing it?
Click to expand...

even if the manufacturer rate their output power slightly differently (say at a different distortion %), they still wouldn't be that far off.
different cabs, speaker arrangements and designs have different sensitivity ratings, but again, IMO, they usually don't vary by much more than 3db. for example, a cab that's rated at a 100db sensitivity will sound approximately as loud with a 200 watt amp, as a 103db sensitivity rated cab with a 100 watt one.
 
#18
In order to have any hope of making a relevant comparison, you must have the same cab so you are changing a single variable. The sensitivity and midrange characteristics of different cabs can have a huge impact on perceived volume, as can the room.
 
#20
I certainly noticed a big difference between my Mesa D-180 (around 140 watts) and my Mesa 400+ (around 270 watts) when played through the same cabinet. As far as 400+ vs. SVT through the same cab, any differences probably had as much to do with voicing as with actual power output- I recall the 400+ seeming louder to me when I compared it with my old SVT with both set up tonally how I preferred, but the 400+ was also much clearer and forward in the high-midrange with my settings, so it would make sense that it would seem louder (in a band setting with the same tones, it is possible that the SVT would have gotten the nod because of its voicing and how it melded with the guitars- I never did this comparison from a purely volume-conscious perspective though)...

In a small room and without pushing the amps to their limits, the extra wattage will likely just be apparent as a difference in headroom- especially noticeable as a heftier and more controlled sounding low end from the SVT at any volume through the same cabinet. However, I believe that 410 cab actually has an inherently more extended (but also probably less controlled) low end than the 810 by design, so this could have been negligible in your testing environment.
 

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