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4ohm V 8ohm 410?

M

MarkyTalkBass

Oct 27, 2008
43
0
Melbourne, Australia
#1
I'm been looking at cabs and will be getting a 410 but whats been killing me is the 4ohm / 8ohm dilemma. I've been doing alot of reading here at TB and I think I basically know the difference that I should expect to hear and that I guess the general rule is to go 4ohm, tbh before reading all this here over the last week I had no idea there was even a difference!

What I've found though is just about every 410 cab I've looked at or seen is 8ohm, which I don't understand if 4ohm is the optimal, is every bass cab designed to be modular? Anyways, if I was to go with an 8ohm cab with a LMII will I be kicking myself later? I would assume that all my previous cabs would've been 8ohm and they've been good for what I've thrown at it, but now that I 'know' about 4ohm cabs should I really hold out for one?
 
#3
depends on a few factors:

-How many watts will your amp put out at 8ohm? how about 4? To generalize, you get about twice as many watts out of your amp into a 4 ohm cab vs 8 ohm, unless your amp is a tube amp then you have to make sure your amp can switch to 4 ohm impedance. Some don't (usually guitar amps).

-Do you plan on getting another cab in the future? If so, you have to figure out if your amp could run @ 2ohms (two 4 ohm cabs). If not, then you need to think about it. A lot of amps don't run at 2 ohms.

I believe it's best to always go with the most amount of power you can get because being underpowered sucks. So if you can get a 4 ohm cab and if your amp will operate at 2 ohms (or you plan on sticking with one cab) then that's the best way.
 
#4
I'm a Bergantino Cabinets guy. All Berg cab "multiples" run at 4 ohms, whether it's the 215, 410, 412, 610, whatever.

My own is an HT322 (2x10 + 1x15) @ 4 ohms, and with my SVT it will blow the doors off a lot of much bigger 8 ohm cabs. (J.Bergantino, as you probably already know, is a big believer in having mucho headroom in the power section.)

All Berg singles run 8 ohms.

I'm no speaker techie, I just know what I like; and for me, Berg's 4 ohm cabs are it: tops!
 
#7
MarkyTalkBass said:
For size reasons I'll definately only be getting the one 410 cab, I would consider getting two smaller cabs but haven't found any combination of 210 115 or 112 that I can afford. What's killing me is why there are so few 4ohm 410s around?
Click to expand...

With the LMII and a large 410, you would be MUCH better off with a 4ohm cab. Of course, SPL plays a part, etc. The LMII just simply kills at 4ohms, and that 500 watt power spec is just perfect for driving a large and relatively high SPL 410 like the Epi410UL, Berg AE410, Goliath III, Eden 410XLT, etc., etc. All of these cabs come in either only 4ohms or in either 8ohms or 4ohms. I believe the Markbass 410's also have a 4ohm/8ohm option.

As many have said, you will get a bit more volume, but what you will really get (especially with the small, moderate powered 'micro amps') is a much cleaner, wider, open feeling low end, especially if playing aggressively.

Of course, 2 x 112 or a 212 4ohm cab are also great options. The Genz Neox212 and the Eden 212XLT and the Aguilar GS212 (all 4ohm cabs) sound GREAT also, and virtually any 2 x 112 stack will result in a nominal impedance of 4ohms.

Again, it's not just about the 2db+ volume increase, but about the headroom and lack of compression and running up to the power amp limiting circuitry when pushed. Once you get a head that puts out 400 or 500+ watts into 8ohms, it becomes less of an issue. But for these little solid state amps, they sing much better run at their optimum impedance IMO and IME.
 
#8
MarkyTalkBass said:
I'm been looking at cabs and will be getting a 410 but whats been killing me is the 4ohm / 8ohm dilemma. I've been doing alot of reading here at TB and I think I basically know the difference that I should expect to hear and that I guess the general rule is to go 4ohm, tbh before reading all this here over the last week I had no idea there was even a difference!

What I've found though is just about every 410 cab I've looked at or seen is 8ohm, which I don't understand if 4ohm is the optimal, is every bass cab designed to be modular? Anyways, if I was to go with an 8ohm cab with a LMII will I be kicking myself later? I would assume that all my previous cabs would've been 8ohm and they've been good for what I've thrown at it, but now that I 'know' about 4ohm cabs should I really hold out for one?
Click to expand...

I didn't realize 4ohm cabs were so hard to find. There isn't any technical reason why they would be less common, so I guess 8ohm cabs are just more popular because you can add another cab later if you want. I know that most companies make 4x10 cabs in both 4ohm or 8ohm versions, including Avatar, GK, Eden, Aguilar, SWR, and Ampeg. The only companies I can think of off the top of my head who don't make 4ohm 4x10 cabs are Peavey, Fender and Hartke.

If it's just an issue of music stores not carrying 4ohm cabs, then you could probably try out their 8ohm cabs, find one you like and then have them order you a 4ohm version of that cab. There should be no difference in tone between a 4 or 8 ohm version of the same cab, one will just be louder because it will receive more power from the same amp.

If you don't intend on buying an extension cab, and you are sure you just want to stick with one 4x10, they yes, definitely hold out for a 4 ohm cab. You will get more out of your amp that way.

Most music stores probably just push 8 ohm cabs on people so they can sell them an extension later. Most people don't even understand ohms anyway, so it's just easier to only sell 8 ohm cabs and then nobody is going to burn up an amp because they tried to add another cab, and get pissed at the music store for selling them the 4ohm version. Music stores are concerned more about idiot proofing things than they are about the rare customer who actual knows what he wants.
 
#11
Have you considered a double cab solution for your 410 8 ohm headache?

That is what I have myself – a MKII head plus the Standard 102HF(8ohm)/Traveller 102P(8ohm) cab combination (all Markbass). This will give you a very powerful 410 with added flexibility – bring one, bring both, stack them (vertical/horizontal/tilted) in any combination. This good old practice is exactly what t.c.electronic have called "innovation" for their RebelStack at the latest NAMM :-)

I recall that you had an earlier posting about a cheaper alternative for the 104HF Markbass cab. The double 2x10 solution I suggest here is a slightly more expensive solution than the single 104HF but you can build it up over time – maybe you would be happier in the long run. (BTW, I looked up the retail price ($165 each) for the 10" drivers used in these cabs (which I believe is a yellow version of B&C HPL-64) – taken that into account MB doesn't seem to be overpriced).

Regarding the 8 ohm vs. 4 ohm discussion, I am puzzled by some of the responses (not only in this thread) that the impedance should impact the sound of the cab. I am lacking a thorough explanation why the impedance should make any changes to the sound. I have searched TB and the web in general but haven’t found any convincing explanation for why the impedance should change the sound. So, if anyone can guide me to this – I will be happy.
According to Markbass' homepage all 4 and 8 ohm versions of the same cab will have the same sensitivity. From this is should follow that if you throw one watt after both impedance versions you should get the same volume (headroom?) and sound out of them – right? (It is clear that an amp like LMII will deliver more energy (watts) to the 4 ohm cab at the same settings but to me that is a different story. IMO is it not clear that the 4ohm/amp combination actually will be louder than the 8ohm/amp combination – unless the work (effect) is lost as heat in the 8ohm cab).

I think it is fairly easy to understand the math regarding impedance but it far more complicated to understand the sound consequences – if there are any?
Why don't Markbass offer a 4ohm version of any of their combos if they actually would sound better?

Anyway, I think you should consider a 2 x 2x10(8ohm) for your 410 need – you will get much more flexibility than you immediately realize.
 
#13
ML2600 said:
Regarding the 8 ohm vs. 4 ohm discussion, I am puzzled by some of the responses (not only in this thread) that the impedance should impact the sound of the cab. I am lacking a thorough explanation why the impedance should make any changes to the sound. I have searched TB and the web in general but haven’t found any convincing explanation for why the impedance should change the sound. So, if anyone can guide me to this – I will be happy.
Click to expand...

I think it's more a matter of the interaction between cab and amp than it is the impedence of the cab affecting sound... Amps can, and do sound different at different volume levels - and the cab's impedence affects the volume level of the amp...



- georgestrings
 
#14
georgestrings said:
I think it's more a matter of the interaction between cab and amp than it is the impedence of the cab affecting sound... Amps can, and do sound different at different volume levels - and the cab's impedence affects the volume level of the amp...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...

that gets into a very complex subject.

Does a solid state power amp sound different (have a different output waveform) at different volume (input gain) levels? - not much if any

will it sound different if the input gain is the same but the impedance of the output transducers is different? - still, not all that much

Does a speaker sound different when being powered with differing amounts of power ? - yeah, for about a dozen complexly interacting reasons

Those are the simple issues. Take into consideration that a speaker with a nominal impedance of 8 ohms isn't 8 ohms at every frequency, AND add to that the factor that with different amounts of power applied to it the impedance will change, AND the fact that at different power levels the output will change, ...................

LBNL, tube power amps will be a bit more sensitive to all those factors

Having said all that, I've really never found a tonal difference between cabs of different impedances. As KJ more or less has said, a cab can sound different when you're driving it hard. However, while much of that is due to the speaker, part of that ends up being due to the fact that we hear things differently as they get louder.
 
#16
IvanMike said:
that gets into a very complex subject.

Does a solid state power amp sound different (have a different output waveform) at different volume (input gain) levels? - not much if any

will it sound different if the input gain is the same but the impedance of the output transducers is different? - still, not all that much

Does a speaker sound different when being powered with differing amounts of power ? - yeah, for about a dozen complexly interacting reasons

Those are the simple issues. Take into consideration that a speaker with a nominal impedance of 8 ohms isn't 8 ohms at every frequency, AND add to that the factor that with different amounts of power applied to it the impedance will change, AND the fact that at different power levels the output will change, ...................

LBNL, tube power amps will be a bit more sensitive to all those factors

Having said all that, I've really never found a tonal difference between cabs of different impedances. As KJ more or less has said, a cab can sound different when you're driving it hard. However, while much of that is due to the speaker, part of that ends up being due to the fact that we hear things differently as they get louder.
Click to expand...


Agreed, it is somewhat complex - but I've seen 1st hand that even SS amps have tonal changes at different volume levels with the same cab, so it's not that much of a stretch to think that something similar *might* happen if an amp has to be pushed a bit harder to match the volume it would get with a 4 ohm cab - when paired up with an 8 ohm cab...

Additionally, it's not unheard of for an amp to carry lows better when it has some headroom left - which is where the advantages of a 4 ohm cab as a stand alone come in...



- georgestrings
 
#17
I had a thread about this same thing.. Epifani, as it turns out, are releasing a cabinet that TRULY is selectable between 4 and 8 ohms.. other people have released them, but it's been a gimmick.. Accugroove had them, but it was a gimmick.. based on what people here said. Dare I say, based on their response, I will not likely EVER do business with Accugroove based on a few things they claimed.. (still).

My Advice: wait until the epifani comes out, people buy it for $10,000.. then wait for their prices to go down.. and wait for other manufacturers to steal the idea..

I have the same dilemma.. I want one single 4 ohms cabinet.. but I would like to be able to pair up another cabinet with it.. using a Shuttle 6.0.. I would like to get the full 600 watts with the single 4x10.. and yet be able to have it become 8 ohms and pair a 1x12 with it for other times.. I want flexiblity..

Or, buy a used 4 ohm cabinet if you can find it.. it's like all these guys are in collusion together.. "Hey, make a head that can do 2x 8 ohms.. I will release a 4 ohms cabinet.." etc.. but at least Epifani offers options.. I cannot say enough great things about Bergantino.. although they have never answered via e-mail any questions I have posed... and yet people around here praise their great service.. I own one Berg cabinet and love it.. but it's 8 ohms.. ugh.

So best to you.. check out this thread.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=514774&highlight=blah114
 
#18
Blah114 said:
I had a thread about this same thing.. Epifani, as it turns out, are releasing a cabinet that TRULY is selectable between 4 and 8 ohms.. other people have released them, but it's been a gimmick.. Accugroove had them, but it was a gimmick.. based on what people here said. Dare I say, based on their response, I will not likely EVER do business with Accugroove based on a few things they claimed.. (still).

My Advice: wait until the epifani comes out, people buy it for $10,000.. then wait for their prices to go down.. and wait for other manufacturers to steal the idea..

I have the same dilemma.. I want one single 4 ohms cabinet.. but I would like to be able to pair up another cabinet with it.. using a Shuttle 6.0.. I would like to get the full 600 watts with the single 4x10.. and yet be able to have it become 8 ohms and pair a 1x12 with it for other times.. I want flexiblity..

Or, buy a used 4 ohm cabinet if you can find it.. it's like all these guys are in collusion together.. "Hey, make a head that can do 2x 8 ohms.. I will release a 4 ohms cabinet.." etc.. but at least Epifani offers options.. I cannot say enough great things about Bergantino.. although they have never answered via e-mail any questions I have posed... and yet people around here praise their great service.. I own one Berg cabinet and love it.. but it's 8 ohms.. ugh.

So best to you.. check out this thread.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=514774&highlight=blah114
Click to expand...


It's a little over my head, but it seems like the dual voice coil design that enables this might lower the SPL to the point where the whole thing might not make sense (i.e., where the cab in 4ohm mode might be a couple of DB lower than a true, fixed 4ohm cab, thereby making the whole thing kind of useless).

Not completely sure, though. I've always been a fan of taking a deep breath, stepping back, thinking through your rig requirements, and buying cabs that match the optimal impedance level of the amp you are using. This is typically one large 4ohm cab, and/or two small 8ohm cabs.
 
#19
someone, somewhere, will release a cab that can switch between 2,4,and 8... and there will likely be trials along the way that do not work.. Epifani is a company I can trust to do the real, right thing.. Bergantino will be next, likely..
 
#20
Blah114 said:
someone, somewhere, will release a cab that can switch between 2,4,and 8... and there will likely be trials along the way that do not work.. Epifani is a company I can trust to do the real, right thing.. Bergantino will be next, likely..
Click to expand...

I don't think the issue is if the impedance will change (i.e., that Accugroove disaster), but rather will the 'efficiency/SPL' be impacted enough to make the whole thing an excercise in futility.

That will be easy to test if and when the cabs are ever put into production. While I respect Nick's cabinet designs, I don't have much positive to say about that company's marketing spec's or customer communication at this point, unfortunately.

Edit: Also, remember, going from 8 to 2 in a multispeaker cab is easy. Also, going from 4ohm 'stereo' to '8ohm mono' is also easy. It's the 8 to 4 mono thing that's difficult.
 

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