4X10 and 1X15 a bad combo... but why?

[Selta]

It amazes me the number of people that argue against this combo, and then how many pro's use it who's tone is awesome. Flea has been using that combo forever. I also think it is subjective to brand. Orange, for example, has their 115 at 400 watts and sounds incredibly bassy and powerful with the 410. Ampegs 115, not so much. If it were such a terrible set up then why do so many pro's use it and have great tone?

Er, that tone isn't what's recorded (most of the time) on the studio albums, and live they're mic'd up (usually hanging off the 4x10, oddly enough ) or DI'd and going through PA, so I'm still not hearing the tone of the whole setup. Almost entirely I'm hearing the tone of their bass, hands, and rack/head setup than the cabs by the time it gets to my ears. And I'm not even going to touch the hot topic of "endorsing" and what pros use...

 

[David Jayne]

Don't do it. Your children will be born naked.

:-D

 

[BurningSkies]

Er, that tone isn't what's recorded (most of the time) on the studio albums, and live they're mic'd up (usually hanging off the 4x10, oddly enough ) or DI'd and going through PA, so I'm still not hearing the tone of the whole setup. Almost entirely I'm hearing the tone of their bass, hands, and rack/head setup than the cabs by the time it gets to my ears. And I'm not even going to touch the hot topic of "endorsing" and what pros use...

And flea has plenty of cash to replace those 15's as they pop on tour.

"Just because flea (or whatever name brand player) does it" isn't really any kind of argument about why this isn't an ideal pairing. Someday I'm going to compile a list of 'Why did I blow my 15 cabinet' threads and I'll post it like I do to every Maple v. Rosewood thread in basses.

 

[walterw]

Flea plays stadiums and uses IEMs (when he plugs in at all ), so I dunno that anybody actually hears his amps; his backline is probably just as important to his tone as Geddy's.

 

[MCS4]

There are plenty of logical, reasonable, scientific reasons to avoid combining a 4x10 and 1x15. There are also plenty of logical, reasonable, scientific reasons to avoid playing with a pick, using distortion, playing solos, or even playing original music.

If it sounds good to you, then do what you like.

 

[BurningSkies]

There are plenty of logical, reasonable, scientific reasons to avoid combining a 4x10 and 1x15. There are also plenty of logical, reasonable, scientific reasons to avoid playing with a pick, using distortion, playing solos, or even playing original music.

If it sounds good to you, then do what you like.

Please find a logical or scientific reason to either using or not using a pick or effects or solos. These seem to be subjective.

 

[MCS4]

Please find a logical or scientific reason to either using or not using a pick or effects or solos. These seem to be subjective.

There is objectively a sonic difference in using all of those things or not (in most situations), just like there is an objective sonic difference (in most situations) in using a 4x10 + 1x15 vs 4x10 + 4x10 vs 1x15 plus 1x15, to greater and lesser degrees.

However, just because there may be an objective difference doesn't mean that any of them are "wrong" or undesirable for a person's particular needs and preferences.

I'm sure we could do a scientific evaluation comparing the effect on a bass's wave form from using a 4x10 + 1x15 vs the effect from kicking on a ring modulator (which I fully support the use of), but I'm not sure that is really necessary here.

 

[P-oddz]

As already said, you are trying to send equal amounts of power to cabs with totally different amounts of power handling. No good reason to do it that I've ever seen. The big reason I hear is 4x10 "for the highs" and a 15 "for the lows" which is not how it works at all.

I know this comes across as very condescending but when I see someone with a 4x10 on a 1x15, I immediately disregard anything they say about bass gear or their knowledge of it. I'm just putting that out there... feel free to keep it in mind or not, but I would want someone to tell me the same.

I own both a 410 and a 115 and do play them together on random occasions (bigger or outdoor stages), though most of the the venues I am playing with the 410 exclusively. I consider myself to be a bit of gear nerd, take my gear very seriously, and I am fully aware of the power handling between the cabs and what that means for efficiency and signal.

I do this mainly because of my pocket book and convenience.

Essentially, I bought my Orange head and Orange 115 cab together used. I wanted a larger/higher powered cab eventually and got a really good deal on the the Orange 410 (for cheaper than what I'd pay new for another 115). So, as mentioned I play the 410 for most shows, but pull the 115 for a little additional horsepower when needed. I know the mismatch is not optimal efficiency, but it is louder, puts my reference tone closer to my ears in larger venues and looks pretty badass in my opinion as a stack.

 

[David Jayne]

However, just because there may be an objective difference doesn't mean that any of them are "wrong" or undesirable for a person's particular needs and preferences.

.... Except when those folks are using them in that combination for exactly the wrong reasons, which they are, 99.999 % of the time.

 

[BurningSkies]

There is objectively a sonic difference in using all of those things or not (in most situations), just like there is an objective sonic difference (in most situations) in using a 4x10 + 1x15 vs 4x10 + 4x10 vs 1x15 plus 1x15, to greater and lesser degrees.

However, just because there may be an objective difference doesn't mean that any of them are "wrong" or undesirable for a person's particular needs and preferences.

I'm sure we could do a scientific evaluation comparing the effect on a bass's wave form from using a 4x10 + 1x15 vs the effect from kicking on a ring modulator (which I fully support the use of), but I'm not sure that is really necessary here.

You may wish to note that no one has told someone not to do whatever the heck they want. But when we're talking about the 'scientific' negatives, they're just that. I really don't care what anyone else uses, and for the most part those rigs make mine look better by comparison anyway. But people should realize when they're making the choices they do, the trade offs involved with those choices. In this case, its the random result of driver matching, uneven tone in the room, including voids and beaming, the increased chance of destroying 15" drivers, and a number of other measurable and quantifiable things. And indeed, it is somewhat subjective if a person wants to have places in the room where their tone isn't the same as other places, or if they want to spend time changing drivers. I suppose there are some people who enjoy that sort of thing.

In the mean time, I'll personally avoid it in the same spirit as I avoid ring modulators.

 

[RustyAxe]

I used a 4x10 with a 1x15 (both Ampeg) for years, and it worked great for me. It's only wrong if YOU believe it is. Most of the arguments against it are nonsense.

 

[MCS4]

.... Except when those folks are using them in that combination for exactly the wrong reasons, which they are, 99.999 % of the time.

I don't disagree with that as a general statement, and I am not rebelling against the almighty Science here. But music is subjective, and no amount of technical analysis matters if someone tries a particular cab combination and finds that it sounds good to them.

I use two 4x10's and don't even own any 15's anymore, so it's not like I have a dog in this "fight."

 

[BassmanPaul]

but pull the 115 for a little additional horsepower when needed.

If you do this, stack the 15 on the top. That way if it starts giving off signs of pain you might just hear them. You also might find that the rig sounds much better this way.

 

[jetgraphics]

Power => Speakers => Moving air => ears
If it sounds good to you, it's good.
....
As to the particular imperfections that make it sound great / ghastly - well - to each his own.
....
The most "perfect" high fidelity signal sources often are perceived to be grotesque, since they do not sound like the one we wish to emulate. And some of the most nonlinear, no fidelity signal chains are cherished for their particular or unique "flavor."
....
Do not listen to me. I have no "taste" and am "tone deaf" - or more likely I have "bad taste" and I ignore the fashionistas.

Play what you like - like what you play.
Or don't play.

 

[P-oddz]

If you do this, stack the 15 on the top. That way if it starts giving off signs of pain you might just hear them. You also might find that the rig sounds much better this way.

That is the way I play it, actually.
Mainly for the reason of stress on the 15 that you mentioned, but also that I DID find I preferred the tone more that way.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I used a 4x10 with a 1x15 (both Ampeg) for years, and it worked great for me. It's only wrong if YOU believe it is. Most of the arguments against it are nonsense.

I'm really glad that it did work for you. If you are loud enough when the 15 is still within it's limits it will never give you a problem.

The way I see it is that the players with greater experience or those who have a scientific background should try to mentor the newer players. I feel that that is what sites like this are about. It worked for you but it will not for very many other folks. For those on a limited budget, blowing a cabinet would be a disaster.

If you consider the posts recommending against the pairing as nonsense then there is nothing any of us can do to change your mind. Being conservative with your amplification system and listening to good advice just makes sense. If you're not, then you're setting yourself up for an on stage failure.

I've been a bass player for longer than 50 years. In all that time I have never damaged a driver in any way whilst playing. I have done damage to two due to my own carelessness but blown, never.

 

[RustyAxe]

I've been a bass player for longer than 50 years. In all that time I have never damaged a driver in any way whilst playing. I have done damage to two due to my own carelessness but blown, never.

47+ years for me, and I've never blown a driver for ANY reason. I've never had the volume loud enough to even break a sweat on the 15. Bottom line, to me, is one needs gear that's suited to the music you're playing. Making a blanket statement like in the OP assumes that EVERYONE plays the same music, style, and volumes you do. If you play with the amp at 11 all night, well ... any speaker can be blown.

 

[BurningSkies]

Power => Speakers => Moving air => ears
If is sounds good to you, it's good.
....
As to the particular imperfections that make it sound great / ghastly - well - to each his own.
....
The most "perfect" high fidelity signal sources often are perceived to be grotesque, since they do not sound like the one we wish to emulate. And some of the most nonlinear, no fidelity signal chains are cherished for their particular or unique "flavor."
....
Do not listen to me. I have no "taste" and am "tone deaf" - or more likely I have "bad taste" and I ignore the fashionistas.

Play what you like - like what you play.
Or don't play.

It kind of misses the point. What many of the 'fashionistas' are pointing out that it may sound great where you're standing in front of the cab, but from out in the room, across the stage, or to the side of the cab, your tone will be completely different, and not necessarily in a good way. Most bass players stand front/center of their rig, with their ears nearest to the 4x10 and pronounce it 'good'....while what everyone else hears something not as good or at the very least different from Joe bass player in front of his rig.

And then Joe goes home and cries after his big night and posts a thread on TB which says "I blew my 1x15 cab what do I do?" because his poor 15 got way more power to its single speaker and died while trying to keep up.

 

[happyg]

I like the 410-115 combo.....with a dual amp head like the gk2001, GB Shuttle Max 12, LH1000 etc. Otherwise. ...its matching cabs for me.

 

[DigitalMan]

All the science is sound (pun) and irrefutable. But I haven't seen any data on how many people blow their 15" drivers due to this phenomenon. As someone who likes a little OD and a little fret buzz, it's hard to say that an imperfect reproduction of sound is good, bad, or indifferent. Science doesn't draw subjective conclusions. Speakers in any real world application contend with all sorts of challenges. Mixing drivers OR cabinet design in any way adds additional potential challenges. Is it 10x worse than that hardwood floor, or only 1/10th as bad? Dunno.

I don't happen to mix cabinets or drivers these days, but I'm sure I'm doing enough other stuff wrong to make up for it.