• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

4X10 and 1X15 a bad combo... but why?

#21
awilkie84 said:
It's simple: A 4x10 has almost 4x the surface area of 1x15. It moves more air, so it's MUCH louder. Your 4x10 drowns out the 1x15, making it pointless.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is simple but not that simple. The standard saying is, "there's no replacement for displacement" and that's because displacement is what really matters. Displacement is the surface area times the excursion. The formula for the surface area is :

Surface Area = Π x (radius - surround)2​

Typical speakers used for bass have a surround of between 0.75 and 1.0 inches. With a surround of 0.75, a 10-inch speaker will have a surface area of 56.7 in2​. With a surround of 1.0, a 15-inch speaker will have a surface area of 132.7 in2​. This means four 10s will have a total surface area of 226.8 in2​. That is a factor of 1.7 times the surface area of one fifteen.

Then we have the excursion to consider and there is a very wide range of values for that. There are "Super 10s" that have excursion equal or greater than most 15s but the typical 10s found in 4x10 cabinets is considerably less. So much less that many 4x10 cabinets have a displacement about the same as typical 1x15 cabinets.

When many companies design their cabinets they try to make the sensitivity of the cabinets within a given series to be as close as possible. Here are some example of companies that have done this :

Hartke - Hx115 : 98, Hx410 : 99
Hartke - 115XL : 98, 410XL : 98
Hartke - AK115 : 98, AK410 : 98
Ampeg - PN-115HLF : 98, PN-410HLF : 98
Ampeg - SVT-15E : 98, SVT-410HE : 98
G-K - Neo115 : 99, Neo410 : 98

I could go on but I hope you get the point. Displacement and sensitivity don't tell the whole story though. What really matters is how the speakers sound together and that is highly subjective. One thing I often read is that 15s play deeper than 10s and that is just not always true. In many cases it is, especially for two cabinets in the same series, but it often is not true at all. In the cases of the speakers I listed above, the 15s do play a bit deeper than the corresponding 10s but there are many 4x10 cabinets that play very deep. The Ampeg SVT-410HLF is one example and Eden's 4x10 cabinets are another. The bottom line is that is not a good generalization to make because there are too many exceptions to consider it a rule.

As for the brigade, I am definitely not a member. I have heard this combination sound very good at times and I have also heard it sound bad, just as I have heard some identical cabinets sound bad. I will certainly not state that a 1x15 and a 4x10 cabinet can not possibly sound good as I have read many times but I can not state that it always sounds good either. One's bass and amplifier play a big role in your sound and some people can make practically anything sound good just as some can't make anything sound good, no matter what they do. You just have to use your ears and go with what YOU like or get the opinion of someone whose ears you trust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: soktau
#23
Goatee said:
Yes this has been done to death on this and other forums but the thing is the "anti mixing 10's with 15's brigade" have very little substance to back up their claims. Various theories are banded about e.g phasing, booming etc but at the end of the day many companies make cabs loaded with 10's and 15's which are designed to work together and many people are out there gigging with a mixed set up and are perfectly happy with their sound...(me included)

In fact there are a few major amp manufacturers that have created cabs with a 15 and 10's in one cab, are the (so called) forum experts going to tell them they don't know what they are doing?
Click to expand...

With all due respect sir, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink... There is lots of good "substance" regarding the not mixing drivers idea. You have to read it though...


Oh, the manufacturers make mixed driver rigs because people buy them, not because they are a great idea. And just because you are a famous bassist (who uses a mixed driver rig) does not mean you are educated on the reproduction of bass frequencies.


If mixed drivers make you happy, then do it. I for one am here to learn and help others to learn. The mixed driver thing may be brushed off as preference but I have owned and used a mixed driver rig for about 5 years. During that time I was constantly looking for "the sound" that made me happy. After joining TB I read all about this subject and borrowed a nice same size driver cab one night and presto, I am a believer. You don't believe? That's ok. I am only trying to help those that want it... Try it, you might like it, I did.
 
#24
brainburst said:
The manufacturers know exactly what they are doing: They will package anything that there is a market for whether it is a good idea or not!.
Click to expand...

Again I've seen many people claim mixing 15's and 10's is just a marketing ploy but to be honest for a manufacturer to push a set up that is going to sound cr@p would be just commercial suicide

If there was a big concern then manufacturers would warn against mixing cabs not people on bass forums, people who prefer 10's would be advised to only stack 10's and those who want 15's would be advised likewise, the net sales of cabs would probably be the same and the manufacturer would not be risking their reputation
 
#27
Psychbass said:
You would want to send more signal to the 10's, not the 15.

That makes sense. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I tried using an eden 4-10 with an Ampeg 1-15.
Amp was a Hartke 7000. In bi-amp mode, the 4-10 was a waste. In "stereo" mode, I had to cut lots of power to the 4-10 at the amp's blend knob to make the volume of the cabs sound equal--- another waste of the 4-10.

That rig is history now. I use a GK 1001 with a 4-10 neo or a 2-12 neo or both cabs. This mix sound great in full range mod.

In the 80's, I ran a bi-amped 2-10, 1-15 setup. My current
full range rig sounds better (and louder when I need it).
 
#28
Goatee said:
Again I've seen many people claim mixing 15's and 10's is just a marketing ploy but to be honest for a manufacturer to push a set up that is going to sound cr@p would be just commercial suicide
Click to expand...

I feel that, possibly, this all started when a marketing department wanted to show (in one ad) both the 1x15 and 4x10 cabinets that they sell. There was also a very prevalent myth, now thankfully debunked, that a 15 produces more lows that a 4x10. Mixing the two would give you the best of both worlds. In reality, for most such pairings, the opposite is true.
 
#29
Seems to me there is an even more prevalent myth here that all 4x10 and all 1x15 cabinets are the same and that none can be successfully used together. There's some kind of knee-jerk reaction happening as soon as someone asks about mixing driver sizes.
 
#30
FretNoMore said:
Seems to me there is an even more prevalent myth here that all 4x10 and all 1x15 cabinets are the same and that none can be successfully used together. There's some kind of knee-jerk reaction happening as soon as someone asks about mixing driver sizes.
Click to expand...

What 4-10 with a single 15 is a good pair up.
Full range only.
 
#31
I'm part of this "anti 4x10 + 1x15 brigade" referenced earlier, and here is what I boil it down to:
A 4x10 + 1x15 setup has a higher likelyhood of having issues with tone and/or stress the 1x15 if I need that much volume.
A 4x10 + 4x10 setup (or 1x15 + 1x15) is much less likely to have issues with tone and/or stressing any individual speaker if I need that much volume.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather not take a risk breaking my gear , being unable to push the volume I need, or have really wonky things going on on stage/out front.

At present, I'm not even in a situation where I have cabs on stage as my band uses IEMs and has an absolutely killer PA for sound out front. If I get myself into a situation where I need a ton of stage volume, I'll be playing through an Audio Kinese TC118 or two :smug:.
 
#34
Mechanical said:
I guess no one read Vince Klortho's post.

It must be better to baffle someone with your ******** opinion than look at hard data.

This is TalkBass, after all.
Click to expand...
He didn't really show "hard data". Just threw out the well known formula for area of a cone and speaker sensitivity numbers. He called out that you do need to look at total air displacement, but doesn't really show xmax figures for any of those speakers, among a multitude of many other necessary facts and measurements available that have an effect on how a cab sounds and what it's frequency response is like.
 
#35
Psychbass said:
The question I have is why is the 15 inch a bad combo? What is the purpose of a 15 if the 4X10 just sounds so much better anyway. Should I be using bridge mode with the one 4x10? Will that blow it up?
Seth
Click to expand...


with your head you can only run it bridged mono with a 8 ohm load. so do not run your single 4 ohm 4x10 bridged mono. just keep doing what you're doing and run it on one side with the balance panned.
 
#36
cheezewiz said:
If you're not playing stadiums, why use more than a 4x10?
Click to expand...

Headroom. Medium to large clubs are actually where you would use more than the 410. You can use the 410 in the stadiums thanks to all the supplied monitoring and usually generous PA. It is about distribution of volume more than actual volume. When you have to control it and not the house you could need a bit more. In theory.
 
#37
Selta said:
He didn't really show "hard data". Just threw out the well known formula for area of a cone and speaker sensitivity numbers. He called out that you do need to look at total air displacement, but doesn't really show xmax figures for any of those speakers, among a multitude of many other necessary facts and measurements available that have an effect on how a cab sounds and what it's frequency response is like.
Click to expand...

That's probably because sensitivity figures as presented by most mainstream cab makers are more ad copy and less spec. If they're not just outright making them up, they're not telling you how they've measured, or followed any consistent or common methodology.

My car might also get 50MPG...when rolling down hill at an idle after I've brought it up to speed.
 
#38
It amazes me the number of people that argue against this combo, and then how many pro's use it who's tone is awesome. Flea has been using that combo forever. I also think it is subjective to brand. Orange, for example, has their 115 at 400 watts and sounds incredibly bassy and powerful with the 410. Ampegs 115, not so much. If it were such a terrible set up then why do so many pro's use it and have great tone?
 
#39
Why do we keep having to rehash this subject? Anyone just has to use the brain that God gave them to see the obvious truth. If the pairing worked properly there would be no threads about blown fifteen inch drivers. Instead there are a plethora of them.

Take a look at the individual cabinets published power ratings. Should be on the back panel. Often you see a 500W 4x10 and a 200W 1x15. Pushed with a 500W amp, each cabinet will be sent up to 250W. So the 4x10 is running at half of it's ability while the 1x15 is over it's maximum. It really is as simple as that.
 
Last edited:
#40
BassmanPaul said:
Why do we keep having to rehash this subject? Anyone just has to use the brain that god gave them to see the obvious truth. If the pairing worked properly there would be no threads about blown fifteen inch drivers. Instead there are a plethora of them.

Take a look at the individual cabinets published power ratings. Should be on the back panel. Often you see a 500W 4x10 and a 200W 1x15. Pushed with a 500W amp each cabinet will be sent up to 250W. So the 4x10 is running at half of it's ability while the 1x15 is over it's maximum. It really is as simple as that.
Click to expand...

But Paul......

Invalid Link Removed
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back