4X10 and 1X15 a bad combo... but why?

[LiquidMidnight]

Moving away from all of the theory and textbook physics into real world situations, my experience with 4x10 + 1x15 rigs pretty much mimics the oft quoted wisdom of Talkbass: the 1x15 easily clips before the voice coils in the 4x10 are barely warm. I've also experienced the phasing issue firsthand. A few years ago, I went to a small music store to buy a Hartke HrDrive 4x10. While the store owner and I were hanging out as I tried it out, I told him that for poops and giggles, I'd try it with the matching 1x15. It was a night and day difference. All of that punch and clarity that the 4x10 had by itself completely disappeared when daisy chained to the 1x15. Instead, the entire rig sounded foggy and unfocused.

With that said, sometimes there are exceptions to the rule. I used to use an Aguilar S410 and GS112 to great effect. I think it worked so well due to the cabs covering somewhat different frequency spectrums. From what I understand, mixing Aggie GS410s with GS212s doesn't sound good due to the very similar frequency responses.

4x10s mated with 1x15s used to be great back in the day of the bi-amp days. The Eden T series were meant to be used in bi-amp situations. However, full-range cabs are so much more readily available in the bass world that unless you're using a dedicated woofer for sub-40hz frequencies, there is no longer much use for bi-amping with a stereo amp and a cross-over.

 

[Goatee]

So in summary...........

Professional bassists (e.g. Flea and all those hundreds of others who have used a mixed 15+10 rig since the late sixties) haven't a clue what they are talking about...?

and if you use a mixed rig you will blow your 15 speaker?.....sorry but this is a joke, if you blow any speaker you are simply pushing a rig too far, no excuses, if you are at a sufficient level to blow any speaker it doesn't matter what your speaker combination is your sound must be crap and you either need to go through the PA or throw some blankets over your drummer...

 

[Dave W]

So in summary...........

Professional bassists (e.g. Flea and all those hundreds of others who have used a mixed 15+10 rig since the late sixties) haven't a clue what they are talking about...?

Professional bassists that play in front of large crowds probably don't even use a stage rig to the extent that smaller club players do. They send a DI to FOH and use in ears for monitoring. Some may use their amp for a stage monitor, but you still wouldn't be hearing it FOH. There are certainly exceptions to those that mic their rig but they're generally only micing one speaker. So you're still not hearing the "full" rig or whatever you want to call it. Some of them just play whatever is provided for backline and they really don't care what it is because it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

and if you use a mixed rig you will blow your 15 speaker?.....sorry but this is a joke, if you blow any speaker you are simply pushing a rig too far, no excuses, if you are at a sufficient level to blow any speaker it doesn't matter what your speaker combination is your sound must be crap and you either need to go through the PA or throw some blankets over your drummer...

It's been explained for 4 pages on why that would/could happen.
Also, saying if you're loud enough to blow a speaker that you must have a crap sound is just plain ignorant.

 

[Goatee]

"Also, saying if you're loud enough to blow a speaker that you must have a crap sound is just plain ignorant"

Sorry not ignorant at all, unless of course your idea of a decent bass sound is some overdriven (just at the peak of blowing a speaker) type cr@p..... If it is I suggest you invest in a overdrive pedal............saves a lot of broken speakers

 

[NightCat]

I've read through most of this thread and several he others. I have a question that may have been asked but I missed it.

Most of conversation seems to be about miss-matched number of drivers. 4x10 + 1x15. Would you still have the same issues if the number of drivers were the same? 1x10 + 1x15, or better, 4x10 + 4x15. I could see needing to compensate for cab volume differences due to driver size but as far as overall sound and what-not would you still be so down on it?
My only real frame of reference is standing next to the stage in front of Lemmie's 4x12 + 4x15 and being blown away by the sheer volume and grind of that rig. I chose that spot on purpose to get as little of the FOH volume as possible.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

NIghtcat... it's really about real world power handling imbalance.
2x10 + 1x15 makes a LOT more sense then 4x10 + 1x15. The reason is that the the 2 10" drivers will "typically" play roughly as loud with the same wattage input(sensitivity) as the 15, AS WELL AS handle the same amount of power. This is speaking in general terms about typical cabs.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I like the 410-115 combo.....with a dual amp head like the gk2001, GB Shuttle Max 12, LH1000 etc. Otherwise. ...its matching cabs for me.

The problem with this approach is that most players will tend to try to balance the volumes from each cabinet. As the 4x10 will be louder due to it's efficiency the fifteen will still be in danger.

 

[Dave W]

Sorry not ignorant at all, unless of course your idea of a decent bass sound is some overdriven (just at the peak of blowing a speaker) type cr@p..... If it is I suggest you invest in a overdrive pedal............saves a lot of broken speakers

Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's crap. That's ignorance.

As for pedals...I have quite a few, thanks. Not a single one of them actually sounds like a driven tube amp which is what I prefer. I've never blown a single speaker either.

 

[Goatee]

"Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's crap"

Yes I apologise for the "cr@p" remark, I appreciate that some people actually like that sound

As an old school bass and guitar player I only drive my guitar amps and prefer plenty of headroom for my bass

and like yourself I have never blown a speaker in either discipline in 35 years of playing

 

[BurningSkies]

"Also, saying if you're loud enough to blow a speaker that you must have a crap sound is just plain ignorant"

Sorry not ignorant at all, unless of course your idea of a decent bass sound is some overdriven (just at the peak of blowing a speaker) type cr@p..... If it is I suggest you invest in a overdrive pedal............saves a lot of broken speakers

Overdrive pedals RUIN more speakers. They HIDE the fact that you've exceeded the mechanical limits of the speaker because you're hiding the speaker's distortion with a layer of OD, pedal or amp distortion. I happen to play screamingly loud myself, but don't get ANY distortion nor do I blow any speakers.

 

[will33]

I played a 410+115 rig for quite a few years. The sky didn't fall. Nowdays though, I do sound better, or at least more consistent throughout the room.

As for the extremes (never do this), or (do whatever), like a lot of things....."it depends.

Sound will definitely be more consistent with matched speakers, especially if you hear yourself while wandering around the room and not making all your assumptions from standing right in front of the rig. If you're always in the PA and your rig is "just a monitor", it doesn't really make much difference. Even if you mic a speaker, it's still just one speaker, and the totality of the "whole rig" isn't getting sent to the house. The only people hearing the whole rig in that case is you, bandmembers on your side of the stage, and maybe the first couple rows of audience depending.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

So in summary...........

Professional bassists (e.g. Flea and all those hundreds of others who have used a mixed 15+10 rig since the late sixties) haven't a clue what they are talking about...?

That very well could be. Being a great player doesn't mean you understand the engineering that goes into reproducing sound. I can drive a car pretty well, but I couldn't explain the finer points of how my transmission works. A lot of players should invest in a decent wireless and actually walk out into the room during soundcheck to hear what their rigs really sound like. It's sometimes an eye-opening experience. What sounds killer two feet in front of the cab doesn't always sound so great 200 feet. Phasing issues aren't always noticeable right in front of their sources.

Also, keep in mind that not every 15 + 10 rig falls into the profile that we're being critical of. Many of those professionals' rigs were bi-amped, much like a three-way PA system, which is not what we're talking about. We're mainly talking about daisy-chaining two cabinets into a mono amplifier without a cross-over.

and if you use a mixed rig you will blow your 15 speaker?.....sorry but this is a joke, if you blow any speaker you are simply pushing a rig too far, no excuses, if you are at a sufficient level to blow any speaker it doesn't matter what your speaker combination is your sound must be crap and you either need to go through the PA or throw some blankets over your drummer...

Yes, that is our point: You are pushing your rig - more specifically, your 15 - too far. Your cabinets are not really matched with regard to their ability to handle power. In almost all cases, the 15 is going to reach its mechanical or thermal limits way earlier than the 4x10. If it works for you, it works for you. But it's seriously an inefficient rig.

 

[will33]

As far as pro players having intimate knowledge of how their gear works, I give you....Vic Wooten + magic power cords.

The pro players play. The pro soundmen handle the sound.

The total results of some mishmash rig have likely never been heard on any recording........ or live performance as long as there was a PA system involved.

 

[Jools4001]

Now I have a Trace Elliot rig in my garage that I no longer use. It is an AH350SMX 2x10 combo. I also have a Barefaced Big One that is my current cab of choice, it has a 3015LF in it, I currently drive it with a bridged XLS1000. I've never tried using the Barefaced cab as an extension speaker for the combo, I could if I wanted to, except that there are better ways of adding speakers.

But...

I take issue with those who say that you will blow the 15. There is no way on this earth that dividing 350 watts between a 2 x 10 and a 3015LF is going to make the LF sweat...or any other high spec 'super fifteen', and you could probably up the wattage considerably to use, say, an 800 watt amp into a 4 x 10 and a fEarful sub or something like it without putting the 15 in mortal danger...it would probably sound like crap for all the phase and dispersion reasons, but wouldn't automatically be the death knell for the 15.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

Jools... three things make you correct.

low wattage
2x10's +15 vs 4x10's + 15
3015LF...

99% of rigs that are being questioned in here defy all three of those specifications. 500+ watts into a generic 8 ohm 15 and a generic 8 ohm 4x10 is what is being discussed as the reason people blow 15's.

 

[BurningSkies]

A 3015LF isn't just 'a 15', nor is it a 15 that's similar to what shows up in much of ANY production cabs. I run two of them with a 3000w poweramp bridged. This is not the 15 that is on stage in whatever rig Flea or whoever is playing and in 99% of cases not the speaker that a casual or weekend player is using.

 

[slade]

Some guys are correct here, some guys are taking things a bit too far. I myself don't care for playing a bi-amped 410X115 rig (did for two years with an Aguilar DB680 and QSC 3001). I pushed the hell out of them both but bi-amped. Using your ears goes a long ways in terms of protecting your cabs. Tone wise- not bad but I'd agree that you have to do more work to make them sound really good though out the room. By using your ears and your brain just about any combo of speakers can work and run without blowing, just be prepared to work a little harder than having matching boxes.
I've heard guys here go on and on about beaming, freq resp, unmatched cabs, bla bla bla, then post a vid of themselves playing their scientifically "superior" rig, showcasing the fact that their playing is horrendous and that their tone is horrid. I've seen incredible players play all kinds of terrible rigs, mismatched, etc and sound amazing. Take all advice with a grain of salt, including mine It takes all kinds.......

 

[BassmanPaul]

47+ years for me, and I've never blown a driver for ANY reason.

In my own defence, my damage was caused by dropping an open B into my cabinets before they had had time to warm up from a -40 odd temperature. Cracked the surrounds of one driver in each of my Acme B2 cabinets. Andy helped me out and supplied a pair of replacement drivers. I'm still kicking myself!, I just wasn't thinking!!!!!

 

[jetgraphics]

Back in the 1970s, I had an "evil" Acoustic head and a 6 x 12 cabinet. Twas very loud, and very bright. Unfortunately peer pressure was against such a novel rig for the times. They insisted that I get 2 x 15 to "sound right." I chuckle when I see 4 x 10s.

 

[iualum]

As already said, you are trying to send equal amounts of power to cabs with totally different amounts of power handling. No good reason to do it that I've ever seen. The big reason I hear is 4x10 "for the highs" and a 15 "for the lows" which is not how it works at all.

I know this comes across as very condescending but when I see someone with a 4x10 on a 1x15, I immediately disregard anything they say about bass gear or their knowledge of it. I'm just putting that out there... feel free to keep it in mind or not, but I would want someone to tell me the same.

Yepper.