5-2-1 or 1-4-5 progression?

[SteveCS]

... I understand the different keys, but don't know how to substitute chords. Thought there would be more differences between the two progressions.

At the risk of being hauled over the coals, so caveat IMHO, IME and YMMV etc.

In the Major key, the I, IV and V are called Primary triads because between them they contain all of the diatonic notes of the key:

I = 1, 3, 5;
IV = 4, 6, 1;
V = 5, 7, 2.

Each Primary triad has a harmonic 'function', based on the name/function of the note in the key:
I = Tonic;
IV = Subdominant;
V = Dominant.

The remaining triads are called Secondary triads, but they are assigned functions based on the degree of commonality they have, ie notes shared, with the Primary triads:

ii = 2, 4, 6.
4 and 6 also figure in IV, so ii commonly takes a Subdominant function;

iii = 3, 5, 7
3 and 5 appear in I, so iii functions mainly as Tonic;
(Edit: 5 & 7 also appear in V, so in some contexts/styles iii may be used in the dominant function.)

vi = 6, 1, 3
1 and 3 appear in I, so vi also has a largely Tonic function;

vii = 7, 2, 4
7 and 2 also feature in the V chord, so vii often works in a Dominant role.

Any chord can be subbed for any other by function, which comes down to shared notes. In the above, the secondary triads all share 2 of the 3 notes in common with at least one of the primary triads, i.e only one note is changed between the Primary and Secondary triads having the same function.

TLDR...

Some interesting analytical observations...

See how there are 3 'tonic' chords (I, iii and vi), 2 'subdominant' chords (ii and IV), and 2 'dominant' chords (V and vii). So the tonic function is well represented.

We can see that, when played in cycles, both the I-IV-V and ii-V-I progressions move in the same way, i.e. Subdominant > Dominant > Tonic, which is why they can sound 'similar', even against different rhythmic foundations. The differences arise out of the resolutions that occur within the progression and the time spent away from the Tonic.

In the change ii-V there are notes in common which softens or smooths the movement compared to IV-V, where there are no shared notes.

In I-IV-V, the Tonic and Dominant are shared twice - in I-IV and V-I - which gives a strong sense of the tonality or key - the Tonic and Dominant - it's not called that for nothing - keep on cropping up. This is a main source of the inner strength alluded to by @Jazz Ad above.

In the case of ii-V-I, the Supertonic (2nd) and Dominant (5th) are shared across 2 changes (by ii-V and V-I respectively), and the Tonic only once (V-I). The 'subdominant' ii chord does not include the Tonic as it does in I-IV-V, but it does includes a note, the 5th, from the V chord. Hence ii-V-I has a weaker sense of tonality and stronger sense of movement 'around' the tonic, which makes it so great for extended vamps and jams - it just keeps going around and around.

Of course the boundaries get exponentially smudged when we start adding 7ths, 9ths etc. into the equation...

 

[Doc Blue]

... you don't start off with advanced modal theory...

Didn't realize I was opening that can of worms. OK, seemingly simple questions can have complex answers that would take away too many practice hours to understand, I can live with that.

IV V I and ii V I are very similar. Both move from subdominant to dominant to tonic. The ii and IV chords share two chord tones. Classical and rock tend to use IV V I, Jazz tends to use II V I. I’d say IV V I is more “square” and open sounding, and ii V I emphasizes the cycle of fourths root motion.

This is a really good answer, thank you.

You're thinking too much in terms of the notes used (as in the names of the notes), and it's fooling you into thinking that these progressions are very similar. But it's really all about thinking in intervals, not in notes.

People make the same conceptual error all the time with modes: thinking about them too much in terms of note names, i.e. in terms of relativity to other modes, when really, outside of major/relative minor flips within a song, they aren't usually applied in the real world by moving between relative modes. They're normally applied as fixed variants on the typical major and minor interval patterns. It's best to think of them with a fixed root, and as different set of intervals based on that root. For example, people often say, "When you're playing in E mixolydian, you're just playing in A major." That is false. The notes happen to be the same, but in real world use, it's completely meaningless that they happen to be the same. If you play in A major over E mixolydian, you will be phrasing and resolving very, very differently, and it will likely sound terrible. You'll never make that conceptual mistake if you simply throw note names and modal relativity out the window, and think only in terms of modes being alternate sets of intervals based on the same root.

Quite honestly, outside of starting a song in its proper key, I haven't actually thought a note name on the bass (or guitar) in over 30 years, since I was a very early beginner – no joke. Once I get going with the song, my thinking is 100 percent about intervals/patterns: I, IV, V, bVI, b3, b7 = finger here, finger there. Not C, F, G, A, Eb, Bb, etc. Not only can you transpose anything instantly that way, with zero struggle, but things like similar alphabetical notes within different progressions (like you are taking about) are impossible to get confused.

In other words, it doesn't help you at all in the real world to think that I-IV-V in one key are the same note names as V-I-II in another key. There's very little application for that realization. What you really need to know is where to put your fingers for I-IV-V and V-I-II (as examples) in any key that is called, regardless of what the notes are named.

Actually I think primarily in intervals, steps, and geometric patterns. Give me the key and chord progression, I'm good to go. I used notes in the OP to communicate with the TB population. Learning to read music tends to be note focused, and being able to quickly find the tonic on the fret board is a much needed skill if reading chord charts. Although I prefer Nashville numbers I think having a good knowledge of actual notes is beneficial.

 

[SteveCS]

[QUOTE="Doc Blue, post: 22800590, member: 341076"...
OK, seemingly simple questions can have complex answers that would take away too many practice hours to understand, I can live with that.

...[/QUOTE]

You don't need an instrument in hand to learn this stuff...keep a couple of good books in your bathroom...

 

[Doc Blue]

... It helps if you have access to a piano to voice the chords and the arpeggios that go with them.

And do this with a track comping the chords, guitar or piano.

Agree, this is very helpful. No piano, so I installed Band in a Box software on my PC and have a sound bar/sub-woofer set-up. Still learning how to use the software, but it's a start at sounding chords. I also generate chord progressions to listen to and play along in different music styles.

Fortunately for you, music theory is fertile ground with a rewarding harvest!

I dove into theory a year before I even had a bass. I find it interesting. Some with books, some on my own with spreadsheet analysis. One eye-opener was understanding the fretboard layout and standard tuning in 4ths. This was during the time I first realized there were 12 semi-tones in an octave. The fretboard layout is a mathematical work of beauty.

I learned a trick for soloing a while back. In a ii-V-I progression, the scale tones of the I will work over all three chords.
For example, when you have a ii-V-I in C major, just play a lick on the C scale (especially the C Pentatonic) over the dminor - GMajor - Cmajor chords.
It's very rudimentary but is a great way to get young players improvising quickly.

I'll try this, thanks

 

[Doc Blue]

There's only one rule in music: if it sounds good, it's good.

That's exactly what got me started on the theory path. I have ears in training. Starting out I knew some notes sounded better together than others. Why, and what are they? Yes, I was looking for the head start, and for me it was time well spent using a spreadsheet and analyzing the sonic frequency relationships.

It is definitely worthwhile to analyze music. When one can understand the relationships, one can more easily get or come up with interesting sound. The song, Spooky, is intriguing. If a band goes as far to do the modulation from Em to Fm, a lot of bands don't bother, they tend to simply shift up a half step. That's not what the song does. It's also a mode change, most noticeable in the 'daa-dada, dadaa-daaa' part. In Em portion, the top two notes of that part are a minor 2nd apart, G to F#. During the Fm portion, they're a major 2nd apart, G to F. It's what makes that song cool, IMO.

With ii-V-I, the ii can also be thought of as the V of V. Keep in mind, V-I is the strongest cadence for resolve. There is reason V-I ends so many songs, phrases, etc... people respond to it. That make ii-V-I quite powerful. Some songs use II-V-I. Same thing. What is neat with bass, you can change the chordal structure. Let's says the band is playing IV-V-I in key of C. Bass could play F-G-C. If you're at the end of a verse, makes good sense. However, if you're in the middle of a verse and the IV-V-I is cadencing out a phrase, you can experiment. Try a playing the second degree of the IV chord, hence A-G-C. Now you've changed it to the structure to vi+6-V-I. It might sound good and different, add some tension, and that is what music is about.

A great example of substituting other chordal notes for the root is the last verse of Orphan Girl by Gillian Welsh. I was rehearsing it with some neighbors for a show. First time I played it like the recording, they stopped saying I had it all wrong. I had them play each chord, then I added the non-root so they could hear the tonal structure, once they heard it clean, they were sold.

I like this stuff.

Good examples, thanks

 

[Doc Blue]

At the risk of being hauled over the coals, so caveat IMHO, IME and YMMV etc.

In the Major key, the I, IV and V are called Primary triads because between them they contain all of the diatonic notes of the key:

I = 1, 3, 5;
IV = 4, 6, 1;
V = 5, 7, 2.

Each Primary triad has a harmonic 'function', based on the name/function of the note in the key:
I = Tonic;
IV = Subdominant;
V = Dominant.

The remaining triads are called Secondary triads, but they are assigned functions based on the degree of commonality they have, ie notes shared, with the Primary triads:

ii = 2, 4, 6.
4 and 6 also figure in IV, so ii commonly takes a Subdominant function;

iii = 3, 5, 7
3 and 5 appear in I, so iii functions mainly as Tonic;

vi = 6, 1, 3
1 and 3 appear in I, so vi also has a largely Tonic function;

vii = 7, 2, 4
7 and 2 also feature in the V chord, so vii often works in a Dominant role.

Any chord can be subbed for any other by function, which comes down to shared notes. In the above, the secondary triads all share 2 of the 3 notes in common with one, and only one, of the primary triads, i.e only one note is changed between the Primary and Secondary triads having the same function.

TLDR...

Some interesting analytical observations...

See how there are 3 'tonic' chords (I, iii and vi), 2 'subdominant' chords (ii and IV), and 2 'dominant' chords (V and vii). So the tonic function is well represented.

We can see that, when played in cycles, both the I-IV-V and ii-V-I progressions move in the same way, i.e. Subdominant > Dominant > Tonic, which is why they can sound 'similar', even against different rhythmic foundations. The differences arise out of the resolutions that occur within the progression and the time spent away from the Tonic.

In the change ii-V there are notes in common which softens or smooths the movement compared to IV-V, where there are no shared notes.

In I-IV-V, the Tonic and Dominant are shared twice - in I-IV and V-I - which gives a strong sense of the tonality or key - the Tonic and Dominant - it's not called that for nothing - keep on cropping up. This is a main source of the inner strength alluded to by @Jazz Ad above.

In the case of ii-V-I, the Supertonic (2nd) and Dominant (5th) are shared across 2 changes (by ii-V and V-I respectively), and the Tonic only once (V-I). The 'subdominant' ii chord does not include the Tonic as it does in I-IV-V, but it does includes a note, the 5th, from the V chord. Hence ii-V-I has a weaker sense of tonality and stronger sense of movement 'around' the tonic, which makes it so great for extended vamps and jams - it just keeps going around and around.

Of course the boundaries get exponentially smudged when we start adding 7ths, 9ths etc. into the equation...

I've read most of this in cold, sterile descriptions that didn't mean much to me except to learn some language. You have included a lot of characteristic description and how this influences musical expression. Lots to absorb here, and a lot of what I'm looking for to help me understand musical relationships and how they are best applied. I'm one of those if I understand the "whys" I'll remember the "whats" and "where we're going". Thanks for your time writing this up. I'll spend some time here digesting.

 

[Boundary Effect]

It is all very much like math. One musician can be describing something to the second who just doesn't get what they're saying. Frustration until suddenly a light goes off, the second person says, you mean like this, describing the issue from a completely different angle. First person, uh,,, yeah. I never thought of it that way. Have fun.

 

[MtManiac]

The fretboard layout is a mathematical work of beauty.

I agree 100%, and after 37 years of playing I'm still learning new things about it!

One thing that's really cool is the distance between peaks of the sine wave (is that amplitude, or frequency?), and comparing one sine wave to that of one of its natural harmonics, and seeing the nodes where the lines meet is really interesting (and where they don't meet), especially when you compare that relationship with the relationship of an open string's pitch to the locations on the string of that pitch's natural harmonics. You can hear it, too. Then recognize that these natural harmonics are the Major 3rd and the Perfect 5th of the open string, all three of which of course form the major triad in the key of the open string note. Same happens of course when you shorten the string by fretting it, but the nodes move up the neck then. I haven't found this very useful while playing, but it's cool.

Then there's the nearly mystical relationship between the fundamental, its Perfect 4th, and its Perfect 5th, as discussed previously in this thread - combined with the fingering of these notes on a stringed instrument tuned to 4ths. Start on the D, 5th fret A string - a fourth up is the G, 5th fret D string, and a fifth down is the A, 5th fret E string. Pretty handily located all on the same fret, one string away from each other.

The four-fret box, I refer to mnemonically as 7/11 - because if you assign one finger per fret, covering four frets, with your middle finger assigned to the root, you can go from your index finger on the Maj 7th all the way up to your pinky on the 11th without moving your wrist.

Yeah, I basically play by numbers. I don't think of note names, I think "ok, E7, there are the 3rd, the 5th, the 6th, and the min 7th, and the octave is the 5th of A7 which is the next chord, perfect."

 

[SteveCS]

I've read most of this in cold, sterile descriptions that didn't mean much to me except to learn some language. You have included a lot of characteristic description and how this influences musical expression. Lots to absorb here, and a lot of what I'm looking for to help me understand musical relationships and how they are best applied. I'm one of those if I understand the "whys" I'll remember the "whats" and "where we're going". Thanks for your time writing this up. I'll spend some time here digesting.

Thanks. It's got little to do with the real business of bringing music to life, i.e. musicianship, but having the basic facts and mechanics tucked away in the back of your mind can do wonders for your confidence as a musician, even if you come to consider it as something long forgotten that you used to know...

 

[Doc Blue]

I agree 100%, and after 37 years of playing I'm still learning new things about it!

One thing that's really cool is the distance between peaks of the sine wave (is that amplitude, or frequency?), and comparing one sine wave to that of one of its natural harmonics, and seeing the nodes where the lines meet is really interesting (and where they don't meet), especially when you compare that relationship with the relationship of an open string's pitch to the locations on the string of that pitch's natural harmonics. You can hear it, too. Then recognize that these natural harmonics are the Major 3rd and the Perfect 5th of the open string, all three of which of course form the major triad in the key of the open string note. Same happens of course when you shorten the string by fretting it, but the nodes move up the neck then. I haven't found this very useful while playing, but it's cool.

Then there's the nearly mystical relationship between the fundamental, its Perfect 4th, and its Perfect 5th, as discussed previously in this thread - combined with the fingering of these notes on a stringed instrument tuned to 4ths. Start on the D, 5th fret A string - a fourth up is the G, 5th fret D string, and a fifth down is the A, 5th fret E string. Pretty handily located all on the same fret, one string away from each other.

The four-fret box, I refer to mnemonically as 7/11 - because if you assign one finger per fret, covering four frets, with your middle finger assigned to the root, you can go from your index finger on the Maj 7th all the way up to your pinky on the 11th without moving your wrist.

Yeah, I basically play by numbers. I don't think of note names, I think "ok, E7, there are the 3rd, the 5th, the 6th, and the min 7th, and the octave is the 5th of A7 which is the next chord, perfect."

The distance between peaks is "period", which is 1/f. Frequency, f, is cycles/second, so period is seconds/cycle. I have a spreadsheet with graphs that shows the peaks aligning that you're talking about, and the perfect 4th and 5th relationship to the tonic in terms of frequency.

So you've run across someone that thinks like you do about the fretboard

 

[MtManiac]

The distance between peaks is "period", which is 1/f. Frequency, f, is cycles/second, so period is seconds/cycle. I have a spreadsheet with graphs that shows the peaks aligning that you're talking about, and the perfect 4th and 5th relationship to the tonic in terms of frequency.

So you've run across someone that thinks like you do about the fretboard

Without your engineering background. It's a struggle, I admit.

 

[Doc Blue]

Thanks. It's got little to do with the real business of bringing music to life, i.e. musicianship, but having the basic facts and mechanics tucked away in the back of your mind can do wonders for your confidence as a musician, even if you come to consider it as something long forgotten that you used to know...

I'm learning that too. I like the science behind the art, and it gives me the understanding behind it that my left dominate brain desires. Now if I can just get the right side to respond and express itself I might have a chance at "bringing the music to life".

 

[EarnestTBass]

modes r ez

If you have ever watched the "The Sound of Music" you can sing all of the modes from the major scale.

do re mi fa so la ti do -Ionian (doe a deer)

( do ) re mi fa so la ti do re -Dorian (ray a drop of golden sun)

( do re ) mi fa so la ti do re mi -Phyrgian (me a name I call myself) ....and so forth

 

[mambo4]

iii = 3, 5, 7
3 and 5 appear in I, so iii functions mainly as Tonic;

5 and 7 are also in the Dominant triad, an equal similarity.
Is there a reason to assume one function over the other?
Perhaps the function of iii depends on context (more than the others)...

having gone down this road of analysis before, I have always wondered.

 

[Mushroo]

modes r ez

If you have ever watched the "The Sound of Music" you can sing all of the modes from the major scale.

do re mi fa so la ti do -Ionian (doe a deer)

( do ) re mi fa so la ti do re -Dorian (ray a drop of golden sun)

( do re ) mi fa so la ti do re mi -Phyrgian (me a name I call myself) ....and so forth

Let's break it down, phrase by phrase:

• "Doe, a deer, a female deer" the chord is CMaj, and Maria sings the notes C, D, E. Clearly this is C Major, and if you want to call it "C Ionian," I won't disagree.
  
• "Ray, a drop of golden sun" the chord is G7, and Maria sings D, E, F. You call this "D Dorian." But if we are going to think in terms of "modes" why not call it G Mixolydian? D Dorian would imply a D Minor tonality, but this sounds more like G dominant 7 territory. But even simpler, why not just call it C Major? We're just working our way up the C Major scale, nothing fancy.
  
• "Me, a name I call myself" goes back to C Major chord. Maria sings E, F, G. You call this E Phrygian, which implies a "Spanish minor" type of sound. However I simply hear this as back to C Major, same as the first phrase except this time the melody emphasizes chord tones 3 and 5 instead of 1 and 3.

So far I am not hearing exotic "modes" at all, just a simple I-V7-I progression in C Major. You conveniently stopped your example at this point, I think because you know (consciously or unconsciously) that your argument breaks down at this point in the song.

• "Far, a long long way to run" goes back to G7 chord. The melody notes are F, G, A. You would call this "F Lydian" (aka "major scale with #4") but I don't know if I hear it that way. I'd prefer to just call it "C Major" but if I had to pick a mode, I'd choose G Mixolydian? To my ear this phrase has a G9 sound, and it is the most dissonant moment in the song up until this point, which is not surprising considering what's coming next...
• "Sew, a needle pulling thread" is the song's first modulation (key change) with a C7 chord setting up the resolution to FMaj on the word "thread". Maria's melody notes G, C, D, E, F, G, A could still be at home in the original key of C Major, but the harmony introduces Bb for the modulation to F Major. Calling this "G Mixolydian" would be incorrect because G Mixolydian has B natural, not B flat.
• "La, a note to follow sew" is the next key change, D7 to G. The melody goes A, D, E, F#, G, A, B. Not correct to call this "A Aeolian" because A Aeolian has F natural, not F sharp.
  
• "Tea, a drink with jam and bread" modulates to A Minor with the chord progression E7, Amin and the melody notes B, E, F#, G#, A, B, C. This is not even close to a B Locrian sound.
  
• "Which will bring us back to..."

In conclusion, I think "Do Re Mi" is a wonderful song for teaching the major scale, but a really terrible example for teaching the modes of the major scale.

 

[SteveCS]

5 and 7 are also in the Dominant triad, an equal similarity.
Is there a reason to assume one function over the other?
Perhaps the function of iii depends on context (more than the others)...

having gone down this road of analysis before, I have always wondered.

At some point the analysis has to give way to what your ears say. Mine say iii tends more to Tonic than Dominant in it's character, as in @Mushroo 's analysis of do-re-mi above. Remember that in V-I and vii-I there are two notes that resolve onto the tonic.

That said, there is an argument that any chord containing the leading-tone could reasonably perform some measure of dominant function. So yes, context should be accounted for.

 

[Doc Blue]

Let's break it down, phrase by phrase:

• "Doe, a deer, a female deer" the chord is CMaj, and Maria sings the notes C, D, E. Clearly this is C Major, and if you want to call it "C Ionian," I won't disagree.
  
• "Ray, a drop of golden sun" the chord is G7, and Maria sings D, E, F. You call this "D Dorian." But if we are going to think in terms of "modes" why not call it G Mixolydian? D Dorian would imply a D Minor tonality, but this sounds more like G dominant 7 territory. But even simpler, why not just call it C Major? We're just working our way up the C Major scale, nothing fancy.
  
• "Me, a name I call myself" goes back to C Major chord. Maria sings E, F, G. You call this E Phrygian, which implies a "Spanish minor" type of sound. However I simply hear this as back to C Major, same as the first phrase except this time the melody emphasizes chord tones 3 and 5 instead of 1 and 3.

So far I am not hearing exotic "modes" at all, just a simple I-V7-I progression in C Major. You conveniently stopped your example at this point, I think because you know (consciously or unconsciously) that your argument breaks down at this point in the song.

• "Far, a long long way to run" goes back to G7 chord. The melody notes are F, G, A. You would call this "F Lydian" (aka "major scale with #4") but I don't know if I hear it that way. I'd prefer to just call it "C Major" but if I had to pick a mode, I'd choose G Mixolydian? To my ear this phrase has a G9 sound, and it is the most dissonant moment in the song up until this point, which is not surprising considering what's coming next...
• "Sew, a needle pulling thread" is the song's first modulation (key change) with a C7 chord setting up the resolution to FMaj on the word "thread". Maria's melody notes G, C, D, E, F, G, A could still be at home in the original key of C Major, but the harmony introduces Bb for the modulation to F Major. Calling this "G Mixolydian" would be incorrect because G Mixolydian has B natural, not B flat.
• "La, a note to follow sew" is the next key change, D7 to G. The melody goes A, D, E, F#, G, A, B. Not correct to call this "A Aeolian" because A Aeolian has F natural, not F sharp.
  
• "Tea, a drink with jam and bread" modulates to A Minor with the chord progression E7, Amin and the melody notes B, E, F#, G#, A, B, C. This is not even close to a B Locrian sound. Serious misunderstanding of the composers' intent.
• "Which will bring us back to..."

In conclusion, I think "Do Re Mi" is a wonderful song for teaching the major scale, but a really terrible example for teaching the modes of the major scale.

My parents took me to see this shortly after it was released. It's only been 50+ years but I do remember the melodies pretty well. Time to see it again .

 

[Doc Blue]

modes r ez

If you have ever watched the "The Sound of Music" you can sing all of the modes from the major scale.

do re mi fa so la ti do -Ionian (doe a deer)

( do ) re mi fa so la ti do re -Dorian (ray a drop of golden sun)

( do re ) mi fa so la ti do re mi -Phyrgian (me a name I call myself) ....and so forth

The structure is easy, but I don't know their application, i.e. where would one prefer C major Aeolian instead of A minor?

 

[Malcolm35]

How do I use all that? Good point.

• Ionian - same notes 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 as the major scale and has an up beat sound. So if you want an up beat major sound Ionian will give you that. So will the major scale. What is the difference in Ionian and the major scale. Ionian is a mode and is played modally. The major scale is a scale and is played tonally. This all boils down to what chords are used. Modal stuff normally will be played over a chord vamp, i.e. the chords do not resolve to I, they drone on so the modal sound can come out. Long story.....
• Lydian - 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7 major scale with the 4 sharped. I really can not hear that much difference in Ionian and Lydian so if I was to do Lydian I would use Lydian Dominant which sharps the 4 and flats the 7. The sound is kinda 1/2 way between Ionian and Mixolydian.
• Mixolydian 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7- major scale with a b7. Is said to have a Latin sound.
• 
  
• Aeolian - 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 same as the minor scale and has a minor sound. Some say sad, I do not hear sad, just minor.
• Dorian - 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 same as the minor scale, but, with a natural 6. An attractive minor sound. My choice if going minor mode.
• Phrygian - 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 minor scale with a flat 2 added. Has a Middle Eastern sound.
• Locrian - 1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7 minor scale with a flat 2 and flat 5 added. Has a dark sound.

Now to your question:

The structure is easy, but I don't know their application, i.e. where would one prefer C major Aeolian instead of A minor?

Well the term major Aeolian is really not correct. Aeolian is a minor mode. C Aeolian, is the C major scale with the 3, 6, & 7 flatted --- and that is the same as the C natural minor scale.

So you are really asking where would one prefer C Aeolian instead of A natural minor scale. Answer C Aeolian would be played modally with a chord vamp and the A natural minor scale would be played tonally with a normal i-iv-V chord progression. Do a Google on modal harmony.

Do yourself a favor and leave all this modal stuff for later you have plenty other stuff to work on right now. My point modal will rob your study time and not give you anything you can use until you start playing melodic phrases. That normally is three years down the road.

Happy trails.

 

[Doc Blue]

Do yourself a favor and leave all this modal stuff for later you have plenty other stuff to work on right now. My point modal will rob your study time and not give you anything you can use until you start playing melodic phrases. That normally is three years down the road.

Happy trails.

Both you and JimmyM have said this. I can read all this and think yeah, different starting points in ...T-T-S-T-T-T-S... intervals, but I really don't understand concept application at all. I'll stick to scales and chord tones. The minor pentatonic is a favorite.

Haven't even talked about rhythm and phrasing... topics for other threads.