5 string theory and practice

[The Nameless]

For me, the fix was installing the string twice. It happens to work on the E string, too. And the A, to a slightly lesser degree. I am a guy who believes you should wind your string to the bottom of the post. Every time a string is turned around its post, it twists. The bigger the string, the more it twists. I noticed long ago my B strings wouldn't vibrate evenly along their length. It was a problem I noticed on many basses. Many B string. You can look and see. Pluck the string and watch it vibrate. In my frustration with my B strings, I'd remove em and install another. I noticed when I'd pull the B off the post, it would quickly UN twist. So one day I let it UN twist, then turned the coiled post end til it was back straight with the post. The strings anchored end, now loose, would turn with it. Then, since the string was already coiled to go round the post, tuning it up would take hardly any turns at all, thus no re twist. After tryin this a few times, I started to see the B strings vibrate FAR more evenly. Many guys say not to wind the string to far around the post, and I think it's cuz they may have the same issue of string twist, and not realize what's causing it. Not only do I wind my strings around the post to the bottom, I then push the B string down in front of the bridge saddles, pickup side, HARD, touching the top of the pickup, creating a very distinct break angle. I do this after the UN twist procedure, so the witness point/break angle isn't moved when turning the string. I do all this only tuning the string up to a half step below my favored tuning, so as to not fatigue the string before I actually play it. After all the procedure, I tune the bass. I do this procedure now on my 3 biggest strings, as ritual. On occasion, the B is still a bit less than the others. I repeat the steps, especially the bridge saddle push down, and the B comes in 99% of the time. In fact, I can really tell if a companies string is gonna work for me doin this. I judge, harshly, the quality of the B string. It's important to me that it's useable up the neck. Other factors are HUGE, too. Pickup height is essential! Again, the out of phase sound can be a tell tale sign of string twist, or, too much magnetic pull on my strings. The B is massive, and has a lot of travel when fretted above the 12th. If it gets to close to a pickup when fretted up there, there goes accuracy and sustain. Each bass, each pickup, is different in this respect. Getting the height balanced for the performance expected is huge. Finding the right string for each individual is key, too. I put tone and performance before feel and my left hand's comfort. I had to raise my action, slightly, tho in my experience I've found the higher the string off the board, the better the performance. But I can get low(ish) action and still have my B string tight and defined. Cutting fundamental a bit on eq helps. Tho some newer amps already take this into consideration. And lastly, on scale length. It isn't the scale the frets are placed upon, between witness points, that makes a B tight. It is the length of the draw of the string between anchor points. If you built a bass with a 34" inch scale, but had the tuners and string anchor the length a 35" scale would draw, the strings works like a 35, but the scale is still 34". For example, a 3 over 2 headstock vs. a 2 over 3. The B strings tuning post would be farther from the bridge, thus achieving a longer draw on the string, without changing scale. I string my Fender thru the body, not cuz it resonates or plays different, but because it draws the string farther, adding an inch to a 34 scale bass. Whew... Told ya I was meticulous. All these factors come into play for me when picking a bass. But, I've had success with that string install procedure. Enuff I've made even Squier 5s play fantastic. By the way, play the bass unplugged, checking its sustain and performance acoustically, then plug it in. Pickups can be weak points, too. Playin acoustically and having a great B, then plugging it in and having it go away when amplified, is a clue it isn't the bass. Lower end basses do sometimes resist my call, heh. But it isn't usually the bass or string. It's almost always the pickups, whether they're too close to the string, or just a lesser set. I used to think steel was a better material for tight B strings, but in the last 5 years or so nickels seem to have caught up. It's a lot to consider, but I like my B strings. So I go thru it. It sounds like a lot, but in time you figger the steps you need to perform, and your procedure will get quicker. I've had a lot of success, and it free'd me up to play more basses to find my tones, cuz I didn't worry the B on certain instruments anymore.

 

[phillybass101]

I play mine like it's just an extension of a 4 String Bass. The hardest thing for me was not hitting the B String when Slapping in E After much practice I can now hit the E String Cleanly without hitting the B. I'm at the point when I play 4 String it just feels naked

 

[pappabass]

I am a ear/pattern player. So only took a few days to utilize the 5th string. I am back playing a 4 because of the small acoustic venues/open mic I play. Lots of times I miss that 5th.Even it may be just for a few notes. Don't over-think it, it will come easily.

 

[Ductapeman]

I made the move almost twenty years ago-- current main bass is a Y2K AmStd Jazz V--what I remember most is that the same technique I used on a four string (fingers, sort of Jack Casady-style) grossly overdrove the lowest notes and made the strings sort of >flap<, not real attractive-- once I got a grip on that, it became fun to make localized earthquakes and watch the effect on the dance floor. Modulate the pulses and you can force people to dance, which is-- marketable.

 

[john_g]

I picked up playing a 5 really quickly and the easiest thing for me was to think about the roots, 5ths and 8ths (or octaves)..so if I was playing a G on the E string, I knew the D was the 5th on the A string (using my first finger on the G, third finger on the D), and the octave was the G on the D string. So then I knew the lower octave of the 5th would be right next to it on the lower B string based on that root, 5, 8 shape. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[sirplabassalot]

The B string on astring is two frets lower than the E string. So lets just say your hitting the third fret(G) on the E string if you want to play a simple line with the 5 string you can play the 1st fret of the B string (C) and your playing the 5th aka a power chord.

 

['shed]

5s are great; welcome to the club! It's important to unlock the theory behind the extra string by playing through the cycle and your scales. You gotta know it cold, and that only comes from practice. Boring, pedantic practice.

Muting is an issue, especially when slapping. Be conscious of it. Anyone on this forum can tell you how they do it, but in the end, the only thing that will work for you is by practicing with an honest ear. (I'm not trying to dodge the question by giving you a non-answer . . . when slapping or picking, a little touch from the wrist, not necessarily sustained contact, but frequent touches, can help tame the rumble. Fingerstyle, I don't subscribe to the fully floating thumb, though it can and does work. I will drop my thumb down to the E string and use the side of my thumb to mute the B. When playing on higher strings, I get good results if I remember to move my elbow out as I ascend to give the hand a stable platform while keeping my thumb on the E. That means lifting my forearm off the side of the bass in order to make the stretch to the G string. YMMV.)

Once you figure out where the notes are and how, theoretically, to incorporate the B into your playing, you are ready to move on to the next stage: being a responsible bassist! That means knowing when to use the B. Most of the time, I just use it as a thumbrest. The low B sits around 30 or 32 Hz (I forget exactly where). The kick drum lives down there. You gotta make room for it. Excessive use of those lowest notes will muddy up the mix.

So, theoretically, know your octave and scale shapes so that you can incorporate the B when called for. Practically, know when it sounds good to use it: flat keys (a la Stevie Wonder or SRV), as the last note of a song, as a thumbrest, etc. Listen to what your ears are telling you; be impartial in your personal assessment.

The low B is a powerful tool; use only as necessary!

 

[wisconsindead]

OP clearly needs to learn some basic music theory and memorize the notes of the fretboard...

 

[drewphishesp]

OP clearly needs to learn some basic music theory and memorize the notes of the fretboard...

SO just to clarify I asked for help with transitioning from a 4 to a 5. I know the notes on the 4 and perhaps was already overthinking the switch to the 5. In the process a lot of great information was shared by some cool people, that I am sure will not only help me but a bunch of other people in the same boat. I'm glad you have enough time in your day to add positive things to a post.

 

[okcrum]

I play mine like it's just an extension of a 4 String Bass. The hardest thing for me was not hitting the B String when Slapping in E After much practice I can now hit the E String Cleanly without hitting the B. I'm at the point when I play 4 String it just feels naked

I missed the entire 80s not playing except for some jazz gigs, so when I finally learned to slap I snuck it in a cover band by slapping most of the Wilson Pickett bass part on Knock On Wood. That was the hardest for me too, as simple as that is. But it sounds really good slapped when I finally got it right.

It was the same thing for fingerstyle. What helped me was resting my thumb lightly on the B string unless I was playing it. Shedding it hard didn't hurt either - the next gig is a heck of a motivator.

 

[nyde7]

When I got my 5er, I made the mistake of trying it that very night on a gig... NOT a good idea! The next night I went back to the 4 for that gig. Then just played nothing but the five practicing like I did the 4, scale patterns up and down the neck. I did have to change technique with the "floating thumb" for muting purposes and break some bad habits. It was worth it! If you are using a pick, You are going to have to learn muting with your palm. So... best thing is to just play it, it won't take long to get your mind in tune. Want to know what it sounds like... record your self playing with a metronome, you will hear the areas that need work.

 

[andruca]

My only advice to the OP is to let the bass change you if you really dig a lower register. I did, became more and more reliant on the low B string, to the point where the couple 4 stringers I still own have been strung BEAD for years now.

 

[wisconsindead]

SO just to clarify I asked for help with transitioning from a 4 to a 5. I know the notes on the 4 and perhaps was already overthinking the switch to the 5. In the process a lot of great information was shared by some cool people, that I am sure will not only help me but a bunch of other people in the same boat. I'm glad you have enough time in your day to add positive things to a post.

I was not intending to come off rude. It just seemed, based on your responses to others, that you didn't have a great understanding of fretboard construction or basic theory. Thus, I felt this was foundational to your issue. What is it that you are trying to really figure out? This whole thread is a bit amorphous/without direction.

 

[barry irwin]

You could look at it as a 4 string bass with some extra notes. (Like you would a 4 string but with the added advantage of having 5 extra low notes.) While you doing that you can learn 2 octave arpeggios starting from the low B string to G string...Major7/Dom7 min7b5 dim7. If you get this far I,m sure you will be OK to carry on on your own.

 

['shed]

For me, the fix was installing the string twice. It happens to work on the E string, too. And the A, to a slightly lesser degree. I am a guy who believes you should wind your string to the bottom of the post. Every time a string is turned around its post, it twists. The bigger the string, the more it twists. I noticed long ago my B strings wouldn't vibrate evenly along their length. It was a problem I noticed on many basses. Many B string. You can look and see. Pluck the string and watch it vibrate. In my frustration with my B strings, I'd remove em and install another. I noticed when I'd pull the B off the post, it would quickly UN twist. So one day I let it UN twist, then turned the coiled post end til it was back straight with the post. The strings anchored end, now loose, would turn with it. Then, since the string was already coiled to go round the post, tuning it up would take hardly any turns at all, thus no re twist. After tryin this a few times, I started to see the B strings vibrate FAR more evenly. Many guys say not to wind the string to far around the post, and I think it's cuz they may have the same issue of string twist, and not realize what's causing it. Not only do I wind my strings around the post to the bottom, I then push the B string down in front of the bridge saddles, pickup side, HARD, touching the top of the pickup, creating a very distinct break angle. I do this after the UN twist procedure, so the witness point/break angle isn't moved when turning the string. I do all this only tuning the string up to a half step below my favored tuning, so as to not fatigue the string before I actually play it. After all the procedure, I tune the bass. I do this procedure now on my 3 biggest strings, as ritual. On occasion, the B is still a bit less than the others. I repeat the steps, especially the bridge saddle push down, and the B comes in 99% of the time. In fact, I can really tell if a companies string is gonna work for me doin this. I judge, harshly, the quality of the B string. It's important to me that it's useable up the neck. Other factors are HUGE, too. Pickup height is essential! Again, the out of phase sound can be a tell tale sign of string twist, or, too much magnetic pull on my strings. The B is massive, and has a lot of travel when fretted above the 12th. If it gets to close to a pickup when fretted up there, there goes accuracy and sustain. Each bass, each pickup, is different in this respect. Getting the height balanced for the performance expected is huge. Finding the right string for each individual is key, too. I put tone and performance before feel and my left hand's comfort. I had to raise my action, slightly, tho in my experience I've found the higher the string off the board, the better the performance. But I can get low(ish) action and still have my B string tight and defined. Cutting fundamental a bit on eq helps. Tho some newer amps already take this into consideration. And lastly, on scale length. It isn't the scale the frets are placed upon, between witness points, that makes a B tight. It is the length of the draw of the string between anchor points. If you built a bass with a 34" inch scale, but had the tuners and string anchor the length a 35" scale would draw, the strings works like a 35, but the scale is still 34". For example, a 3 over 2 headstock vs. a 2 over 3. The B strings tuning post would be farther from the bridge, thus achieving a longer draw on the string, without changing scale. I string my Fender thru the body, not cuz it resonates or plays different, but because it draws the string farther, adding an inch to a 34 scale bass. Whew... Told ya I was meticulous. All these factors come into play for me when picking a bass. But, I've had success with that string install procedure. Enuff I've made even Squier 5s play fantastic. By the way, play the bass unplugged, checking its sustain and performance acoustically, then plug it in. Pickups can be weak points, too. Playin acoustically and having a great B, then plugging it in and having it go away when amplified, is a clue it isn't the bass. Lower end basses do sometimes resist my call, heh. But it isn't usually the bass or string. It's almost always the pickups, whether they're too close to the string, or just a lesser set. I used to think steel was a better material for tight B strings, but in the last 5 years or so nickels seem to have caught up. It's a lot to consider, but I like my B strings. So I go thru it. It sounds like a lot, but in time you figger the steps you need to perform, and your procedure will get quicker. I've had a lot of success, and it free'd me up to play more basses to find my tones, cuz I didn't worry the B on certain instruments anymore.

I dig the detail. I do my best to minimize the twist along the length of the string, too, but in a different way. As I tighten the string around the post (and I do prefer enough winds to get the string down to the bottom of the tuner), I stop tightening with just a bit of slack, just enough to back the ball end of the string out of the slot in the bridge or body and allow the string to unravel itself. While doing so, I'm keeping the string taut around the post with my hand so as not to introduce any slack into the winding. Then I resume tightening the string the last half-turn or whatever to bring it to pitch. Same principle, but I'm letting untwist at the ball end rather than at the tuner.

I haven't discerned evidence of the difference between anchor point and the nodes at the nut and saddle, though. Tim Cloonan (RIP) of CallowHill postulated that the break angle over the nut and saddle was more important than the anchor points' distance from the nut or saddle. It led me to string my Laklands through-bridge rather than through-body (but they are 35" already, so I can't speak to the effect re: a 34"), and I've found that I like the B more when strung through bridge. So long as you always ensure the bridge screws are tightened when you change your strings, I'm no longer convinced that through-body is necessary or even beneficial. That said, every bass and player is different, so I can only report what I've found with my own touch on my own instruments.

One last ultra-nerd detail that I think you'll appreciate, though I honestly can't tell if it's voodoo or not: every time I change strings, I draw my saddles back (away from the nut) farther than I know they'll need to be. Then I string up, untwist, tune to pitch, press down over the saddle to create that clean break angle, and play it in a bit. At this point, the intonation is flat. Then I incrementally move the saddle forward a tiny bit at a time, pressing down over the saddle, and check intonation until I eventually arrive at the correct intonation. The idea is that you never make that clean break angle over the saddle only to realize that you're sharp, because if so, you have to move your saddle back, meaning that the break angle you just created is now a kink along the speaking length of the string.

OP, sorry if I may have strayed too far from your question!

 

[The Nameless]

I dig the detail. I do my best to minimize the twist along the length of the string, too, but in a different way. As I tighten the string around the post (and I do prefer enough winds to get the string down to the bottom of the tuner), I stop tightening with just a bit of slack, just enough to back the ball end of the string out of the slot in the bridge or body and allow the string to unravel itself. While doing so, I'm keeping the string taut around the post with my hand so as not to introduce any slack into the winding. Then I resume tightening the string the last half-turn or whatever to bring it to pitch. Same principle, but I'm letting untwist at the ball end rather than at the tuner.

I haven't discerned evidence of the difference between anchor point and the nodes at the nut and saddle, though. Tim Cloonan (RIP) of CallowHill postulated that the break angle over the nut and saddle was more important than the anchor points' distance from the nut or saddle. It led me to string my Laklands through-bridge rather than through-body (but they are 35" already, so I can't speak to the effect re: a 34"), and I've found that I like the B more when strung through bridge. So long as you always ensure the bridge screws are tightened when you change your strings, I'm no longer convinced that through-body is necessary or even beneficial. That said, every bass and player is different, so I can only report what I've found with my own touch on my own instruments.

One last ultra-nerd detail that I think you'll appreciate, though I honestly can't tell if it's voodoo or not: every time I change strings, I draw my saddles back (away from the nut) farther than I know they'll need to be. Then I string up, untwist, tune to pitch, press down over the saddle to create that clean break angle, and play it in a bit. At this point, the intonation is flat. Then I incrementally move the saddle forward a tiny bit at a time, pressing down over the saddle, and check intonation until I eventually arrive at the correct intonation. The idea is that you never make that clean break angle over the saddle only to realize that you're sharp, because if so, you have to move your saddle back, meaning that the break angle you just created is now a kink along the speaking length of the string.

OP, sorry if I may have strayed too far from your question!

I most certainly can appreciate the detail. And I appreciate a new perspective on things I do that aren't very common, would seem. I've played several Lakland basses over the years. And, in fact, we're the basis of many of my tests of B strings over the years. I drew some of my "string draw" theory from a fave DJ 5 I had before my current Fender. It had, and Laklands have, 3 over 2 headstock, instead of my 4 over 1, added to the fact they are 35 scale. I went back an forth a ton with the Lakland, thru bridge and body. Both ways had the B outstanding, but the B strings draw thru the body created the response from the string I desired, where the bridge felt less taut. That is individual preference, as you said. But, I still believe the anchor points are as important, simply for the stretch of the string. Not necessarily for only the playing lenth, but getting the parts beyond the bridge and nut stretched. I believe this adds to tuning stability. On my Fender, the strings winding length ends just after the nut, and after an initial install, it never goes out of tune again. My Warwick, on the other hand, with the same strings, has the B string's windings way closer to the post. After installing strings, they tend to go flat. I have procedures for this, too, as I prefer NOT to overly stretch strings on install, because of fatigue, and wearing out more quickly, and I think the push down over bridge saddle method stretches them enuff. But I do have to stretch the parts beyond nut and bridge on the Warwick to stabilize it. I think it's cuz of settling of the string, or, it hasn't been fully stretched. Like pianos, which have a whole lot of string beyond it's playing length, and that extra part must be pulled, too, or the piano never settles. I think the farther between two points a string is anchored, the more tension it takes to pull em straight. I use telephone poles as an example. Two close together it's easy to pull the wires taut. Farther apart, it takes more effort to get the wire straight between the poles. Compound archery bows use the same theory. But, none of this is scientific. Just thot I had while analyzing my B strings, and why some were better than others. I have my Fender's B rivalling Laklands, Modulus and other basses, if not better. But, for me, 35 scale basses cause fatigue in my left hand, especially fretless, which I play a ton of. So, my whole point was to get my 34 B strings as good as the 35s I've played. The DJ had a great B, but when I'd switch to my 34 fretless, I'd play sharp, a lot. So I switched back to 34 scale, and found ways to make my B string not only play and sustain well above the 12th fret, but react and feel like my E string. In my way I succeeded. For me. And I hope our info gets passed along.
On intonation, and your technique of un twisting strings? I play hard with high action. I have to intonate my basses slightly flat, so I hear them in tune as I play. Cuzza this, I gotta precisely intonate every set I install.
And on your way of untwisting strings, I wish I could leave the strings around the post, but, with my Fender thru the body, I can't get to the ball end, an my Warwicks I have a quick change tailpiece which let's the ball fall out so it's a two hand job to hold and turn the ball end, while takin it off the post let's me keep the ball in it's channel. I'd do it yer way if I strung my Fender thru the bridge, but tho the B is still good thru bridge, the feel of the strings change, and I prefer their feel thru body. I wish my Warwicks were strung thru body. Ha! Not... They're difficult enuff to deal with. Ha! Sorry to digress. Back to the OP's question...

 

[paulears]

If you train to be a 'proper' teacher, you spend a lot of time trying to understand how people learn - and the current thinking is that there are 4 broad groups. You tube videos don't work for all of them, and one thing is very clear - you won't learn well if it's done the wrong way. All the suggestions in this topic are pretty good - but - fail to realise that they just cannot work for some people. These researched and analysed learning styles fir learning bass perfectly.

See which one fits you best - then seek out the most appropriate method of learning for you. If you pick the right one, your learning speed increases amazingly, while the wrong one almost guarantees failure!

Activists are those people who learn by doing. Activists need to get their hands dirty, to dive in with both feet first. Have an open-minded approach to learning, involving themselves fully and without bias in new experiences.

Theorists
These learners like to understand the theory behind the actions. They need theory, concepts and facts in order to engage in the learning process. Prefer to analyse and synthesise, drawing new information into a systematic and logical 'theory'.

Pragmatists
These people need to be able to see how to put the learning into practice in the real world. Abstract concepts and practice are of limited use unless they can see a way to put the ideas into action in their lives. Experimenters, trying out new ideas, theories and techniques to see if they work.

Thinkers
These people learn by observing and thinking about what happened. They may avoid leaping in and prefer to watch from the sidelines. Prefer to stand back and view experiences from a number of different perspectives, collecting data and taking the time to work towards an appropriate conclusion.