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7th Scale?

#21
Never heard the terms "7th scale" or "major blues scale" before, but the relative explanation makes sense to me. I also would have called it a mixolydian, with a minor 3rd instead of the 4th.

It would fit in a lot of places and make a pretty safe choice, goes over minor chords, 7th chords, that covers a lot of ground. And theres no fourth to trip up on, so you won't accidentally imply the 4 chord before you're ready to really go to the 4 chord. Not sure if I agree on the popularity of it, as no one's heard of it. But a good choice in a lot of situations for sure.
 
#23
DanMax said:
All,

I have a question about something I've read in an instruction book, Harvey Vinson's Bass Guitar Scale Manual, published by Amsco in 1985. I like to check up on the things I read, to avoid issues. This one didn't check out, and I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it.

Vinson wrote quite a number of guitar books, including some good classical guitar collections, in decades past. I don't know if Mr. Vinson is alive, passed away, or alive but not online.

The book is well laid out, with straightforward explanations followed by useful exercises. Generally, I'm impressed with it.

One of the scales he makes a priority to teach early is what he calls a "7th scale." Spelled out half-step intervals, where 1 is a half step and 2 is a whole step, he constructs the scale like this:
2113212

The A scale would then be: A-B-C-C#-E-F#-G-A.

This is the only scale I've ever seen with three consecutive scale degrees each a half-step apart.

Looking online, I find that the Mixolydian mode is sometimes called the 7th scale. Ok, but this is not a Mixolydian mode.

I can't find any scale like this on land or sea, in fact.

Maybe this was a popular scale among bassists in some music scene back in 1985, and times have changed and it's no longer played.

Or maybe someone on the forum's about to wise me up to as to how this is used all the time, only it's called something else. I'm here to learn, so lay it on me, please. Extra points if Mr. Vinson posts.

I'm pasting an image from the book below, so you can see what he said. Thanks in advance.


View attachment 821333
Click to expand...

I question this book's analysis. "The A 7th scale is used widely in rock." Really? In that key and everything? It also bugs me that he repeats the C in the spelling, but then goes on to E. Why isn't there a D? When writing out a scale, it always goes with the alphabet unless there's some reason for it not to. A B C D E F G. Add alterations (sharp/flats) as necessary.

Also, it's just the Lydian mode. Play a major scale starting at the 4th and the series of intervals described is what you end up with (except with the correct spelling). The whole thing seems gimmicky to me.
 
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#24
InhumanResource said:
IWhy isn't there a D?
Click to expand...

D is an "avoid" note on A7, A9, or A7#9 chords. Try it and see. You might like it, but many improvisers avoid that sound.

InhumanResource said:
When writing out a scale, it always goes with the alphabet unless there's some reason for it not to.
Click to expand...

In this case, Harvey Vinson's "reason" for writing C# instead of Db is that he is describing an "improviser's scale" that has hybrid characteristics of both A Major and A Minor pentatonic scales. So, both C and C#, existing side by side. We can debate whether this is theoretically "correct," but it successfully describes a certain percentage of actual songs.
 
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#25
InhumanResource said:
I question this book's analysis. "The A 7th scale is used widely in rock." Really? In that key and everything? It also bugs me that he repeats the C in the spelling, but then goes on to E. Why isn't there a D? When writing out a scale, it always goes with the alphabet unless there's some reason for it not to. A B C D E F G. Add alterations (sharp/flats) as necessary.

Also, it's just the Lydian mode. Play a major scale starting at the 4th and the series of intervals described is what you end up with (except with the correct spelling). The whole thing seems gimmicky to me.
Click to expand...
:confused:? Not even close. Maybe you misread it?
 
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#26
Whousedtoplay said:
Who can help me to find EVEN ONE difference between
A Major Blues Scale from the OP postingView attachment 822312
and the A Major Blues Scale:
View attachment 822311

Is it just that G - b7th?
Click to expand...
Yeah, they are pretty close. Just missing the G in thar second example
Mushroo said:
D is an "avoid" note on A7, A9, or A7#9 chords. Try it and see. You might like it, but many improvisers avoid that sound.



In this case, Harvey Vinson's "reason" for writing C# instead of Db is that he is describing an "improviser's scale" that has hybrid characteristics of both A Major and A Minor pentatonic scales. So, both C and C#, existing side by side. We can debate whether this is theoretically "correct," but it successfully describes a certain percentage of actual songs.
Click to expand...
I would modify that to say the 4th is an avoid note, not necessarily the D. However, we have an augmented fourth here (or flat fifth depending on key I suppose). changing the letter doesn't so it from being an avoid note. It just seems sloppily notated/spelled.
 
#29
Yeah, I think that about sums it up. i'm finding on the web a lot of people using variants of the Mixolydian over 7th chords, and giving them names like "Bebop 7th scale," or this 7th scale or that 7th scale.

So, this was Vinson's favorite Mixolydian variant. Sure, why not this one? He had his reasons for choosing it.

"Unfortunate choice of name" is the only thing wrong. If you're teaching something and give it a name that no one else uses, you do your students no favors.

But maybe that's what everyone called it back then. A piece of history.

Thanks, everyone.
 

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