Double Bass A Career as a Jazz Musician

[PRUNEFACE]

Over the past few months I have slowly been coming to the conclusion that I want to be a musician -I want it to be my career. I am posting several other threads in various forums to get perspective on several different career paths (A Career as an Orchestral Musician and A Career in Composing or Conducting in Miscellaneous); I assume this subforum is the one to go to for a career as a jazz musician.
Some of my questions for those of you that are, or have experience in, or know of people in conducting/composing careers:
Do most jazz performers have steady, regular paying gigs? Where do they find these gigs? How many nights a week do YOU play for pay?

Do most jazzers get jobs at colleges or universities to supplement their primary (or maybe for the "starving jazz musician" primary) pay? (I'm not saying Juilliard; I mean like the local community college, the local non-flagship university)

What can I do to further my study of jazz? I jam each week for about 2 hours (1 hour each on two days) with my first bass teacher while he plays guitar. (I just bring my real book and we flip to a random tune.)

Is being a jazz musician a full time job? It seems like nowadays with jazz not being the pop music as it was in the forties that very few musicians actually do touring or survive on just the pay of performing.

Is a conservatory/school of music education necessary for success as a jazz bassist? (Subjective I know, but I plan on going to college regardless. I love music. (and I don't see this happening BUT) If I realize that I don't want to be a musician I could go to law school/graduate school etc. with a Bachelor of Music.) Do big bands/ensembles/combos/groups-in-general take your education into consideration when thinking of pay? When thinking of your playing?

Finally, in my area there is very little for me to do musically. I am in the local Northwest Florida Youth Orchestra (which does not play the most exciting bass pieces and last year I was the only bass, could be this year too), the high school Symphonic Band (although I don't get to play anything for the first semester, as they are working on marching music and I'm the only bass/string instrument) and a string ensemble (which plays arrangements of pieces, not the actual piece).
What should I be doing or trying to accomplish as far as performance opportunities and chances to play with others?
I think I am making the most of my situation, but I want advice. Is there anything else I can be doing that I'm not thinking of?
How do I find opportunities to actually play jazz? There is literally NO opportunities to perform jazz around here. The only jazz gigs that I know of are once-a-year mini-festivals, and because of the economy the jazz gigs that were here have been canceled. I would love to do jazz band, but I don't know if it is possible. I would most likely have to drop out of the IB (International Baccalaureate) program at my school, which I don't know if my parents would approve of (even though I'm technically just pre-IB as I am a sophomore it is considered part of the program).

Thanks all!

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Do most jazz performers have steady, regular paying gigs?

No, most freelance with gigs coming in from different sources. Sometimes a regular weekly gig at a club may happen.

Where do they find these gigs?

There are more gigs of this type in larger cities.

How many nights a week do YOU play for pay?

I'm fortunate to be working 5-7 nights a week.

Do most jazzers get jobs at colleges or universities to supplement their primary (or maybe for the "starving jazz musician" primary) pay? (I'm not saying Juilliard; I mean like the local community college, the local non-flagship university)

Many do and take private students outside of a school environment.

What can I do to further my study of jazz? I jam each week for about 2 hours (1 hour each on two days) with my first bass teacher while he plays guitar. (I just bring my real book and we flip to a random tune.)

Find more people to play with. 2 hours a week isn't enough in my opinion, to get where you want to go. Regular practice is also important. Play along cds are also of use, expecially if you can't find people to play with.

Is being a jazz musician a full time job? It seems like nowadays with jazz not being the pop music as it was in the forties that very few musicians actually do touring or survive on just the pay of performing.

It is possible, but increasingly unlikely. It depends on what your financial needs are to a great extent.


Is a conservatory/school of music education necessary for success as a jazz bassist?

No, not at all, except to give you time to get your playing and musicianship together in a sheltered, encouraging environment. Plenty have done it outside of that environment.

But, a music degree is essential if you want to teach in a high school or college. Very hard to get a position without one except for the occasional star performer. They usually look for at least masters degrees and prefer doctorates

Hope this helps. Keep playing as much as possible now. If you decide to continue music in college, pick a place that has a good program, great teachers and many students to interact with.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Over the past few months I have slowly been coming to the conclusion that I want to be a musician -I want it to be my career.

WHY?

That's not just a flip response (even though much of the rest of this post is). Please tell. It will inform peoples' responses.

Do most jazz performers have steady, regular paying gigs?

There are two ways to answer this question, each equally accurate:
a) Yes, but not as jazz musicians.
b) Some do but in Portland, Maine those gigs pay about $25/night.

How many nights a week do YOU play for pay?

To paraphrase the noted improviser Jerry Garcia, "I play for free. I get paid to move gear." And as you can see above, the pay is about right for a gear-hand but terribly low for a trained, experienced improviser.

What can I do to further my study of jazz?

Great question. (Note that "further my study" is not directly related to "being a jazz professional" or a "being a jazz amateur.") Listen tons. Play tons, in as many different settings as possible. Write, text and music. Take lessons from everyone you can who inspires you. Jazz is a deep study requiring time on the clock and time on the calendar. There is no substitute.

Is being a jazz musician a full time job?

Not for me.

Is a conservatory/school of music education necessary for success as a jazz bassist?

How do you define "success as a jazz bassist?"

Do big bands/ensembles/combos/groups-in-general take your education into consideration when thinking of pay? When thinking of your playing?

Pay: No. Even I can answer that.
Playing: Only VERY rarely. I just played with an old pal visiting from Los Angeles. He is and will long be known as "The Guy Who Got His Bachelor's In Music At Age 16."

What should I be doing or trying to accomplish as far as performance opportunities and chances to play with others?

Don't wait for them to come. MAKE THEM HAPPEN. Approach restaurants about playing Sunday brunch. Talk to Parks & Rec about providing AC for a weekly jam at the Community Center. "If You Build It They Will Come." If they don't come that is STILL a learning experience.

I would most likely have to drop out of the IB (International Baccalaureate) program at my school

Chief, a lot of successful jazz musicians studied something else. (Consider the example of Mr. Herbert J. Hancock, who studied electrical engineering.) I am not trying to talk you out of studying music (and you wouldn't let me if I tried). I am suggesting that studying the Greek classics might positively affect your life in jazz just as much as studying the Dorian mode.

Good luck, and here comes better advice below . . .

 

[PRUNEFACE]

Why do I feel that I want to be a musician?
I feel I want to be a musician because:
1.) I enjoy playing my instrument. Sure that's a big part, if I didn't like playing it it wouldn't be much fun being a musician.
2.) I like performing (I like the creativity involved in jazz, the interpretation in soloing, and then the being part of something bigger in the orchestra)
3.) I like the idea of (but haven't reached a point where I feel comfortable doing so) teaching others to play and helping them develop into a better player.
4.) (This applies more particularly to jazz) I LOVE the compositions -nothing quite like Black Orpheus or Body and Soul in other genres.
5.) (This applies more to classical) I LOVE the compositions -nothing quite like playing what inspired the advancements of music in the last 100 years. (and it's challenging among other things)
6.) The feeling creating music gives me is unsurpassed by anything I have experienced.
7.) All the other stuff is fluff. What really matters: Nothing is music but music.

 

[Stanky D]

Why do I feel that I want to be a musician?
I feel I want to be a musician because:
1.) I enjoy playing my instrument. Sure that's a big part, if I didn't like playing it it wouldn't be much fun being a musician.
2.) I like performing (I like the creativity involved in jazz, the interpretation in soloing, and then the being part of something bigger in the orchestra)
3.) I like the idea of (but haven't reached a point where I feel comfortable doing so) teaching others to play and helping them develop into a better player.
4.) (This applies more particularly to jazz) I LOVE the compositions -nothing quite like Black Orpheus or Body and Soul in other genres.
5.) (This applies more to classical) I LOVE the compositions -nothing quite like playing what inspired the advancements of music in the last 100 years. (and it's challenging among other things)
6.) The feeling creating music gives me is unsurpassed by anything I have experienced.
7.) All the other stuff is fluff. What really matters: Nothing is music but music.

Hello, not to let this this really steer you, but I often tell my students [when approached about the option of being a professional musician] to only go through with it if that is the only option for them. Most of your statements in the quoted post don't only apply to professional jazz musicians, that is to say that they are fruits that can still be fully enjoyed by somebody with another primary trade. If you know that you want to be a pro musician, then the rather pronounced obstacles that you will surely encounter (money struggles, relationship difficulties, substance abuse - maybe not your own but you will be affected negatively by it at least by a third party in some way, et al.) will not deter you from your path. That being said, it is a great life for the right folks.

Another important point I would make is that becoming a pro jazz musician is not usually a concrete cadence; One usually has another source of income initially and as his/her craft and networking expand, the other job are gradually supplanted by music income. Ultimately, you would likely need to live where there is a little bit more going on, but sometimes it is good early on to be where not much is going on so that you can practice and listen a lot more and have an easier rent to make.

My two cents. The most important thing is to enjoy music regardless of whether it is paying your bills. Practice and jam with folks as much as feels good to you. If that's 8-10 hours a day, you're likely on the path already. Details vary from cat to cat. Peace.

 

[PRUNEFACE]

I just don't know where to find that time the way things are. (Or I can find the time, just not the players!) It is just difficult to find the "jazz scene" in this area.
(And it's hard to encompass with words, but music is the ONLY path for me as of right now. I just don't know which musical path to follow as can be seen by my conducting/composition and orchestral musician threads.)
I just wish I lived in a big city.

Hello, not to let this this really steer you, but I often tell my students [when approached about the option of being a professional musician] to only go through with it if that is the only option for them. Most of your statements in the quoted post don't only apply to professional jazz musicians, that is to say that they are fruits that can still be fully enjoyed by somebody with another primary trade. If you know that you want to be a pro musician, then the rather pronounced obstacles that you will surely encounter (money struggles, relationship difficulties, substance abuse - maybe not your own but you will be affected negatively by it at least by a third party in some way, et al.) will not deter you from your path. That being said, it is a great life for the right folks.

Another important point I would make is that becoming a pro jazz musician is not usually a concrete cadence; One usually has another source of income initially and as his/her craft and networking expand, the other job are gradually supplanted by music income. Ultimately, you would likely need to live where there is a little bit more going on, but sometimes it is good early on to be where not much is going on so that you can practice and listen a lot more and have an easier rent to make.

My two cents. The most important thing is to enjoy music regardless of whether it is paying your bills. Practice and jam with folks as much as feels good to you. If that's 8-10 hours a day, you're likely on the path already. Details vary from cat to cat. Peace.

 

[emilio g]

Do most jazz performers have steady, regular paying gigs?


Kinda. I've had them in churches and restaurants. Awesome while it lasts, but these gigs can stop very abruptly sometimes then you have to start hustling again.


Where do they find these gigs?


Other people. Every gig I've ever had I either hustled for myself (this is a lot of work for a young guy with no reputation, like myself), gotten called by a friend who likes my playing, or gotten called to sub for another bass playing friend.


How many nights a week do YOU play for pay?

An average of 1 to 2 times per week. Sometimes less, sometimes more. I would rather work part time at a job and play with people I like that be forced to take any and every gig I can. There's an alarming number of AWFUL gigs out there that pay pretty well. Also, consider I'm a 23 year old single guy so my living expenses are pretty low at the moment.

Do most jazzers get jobs at colleges or universities to supplement their primary (or maybe for the "starving jazz musician" primary) pay? (I'm not saying Juilliard; I mean like the local community college, the local non-flagship university)

I would venture to say that some do, but most do not. Most teach privately.


What can I do to further my study of jazz? I jam each week for about 2 hours (1 hour each on two days) with my first bass teacher while he plays guitar. (I just bring my real book and we flip to a random tune.)


Transcribe. Learn lots and lots of great melodies then try to play great melodies when you solo or accompany someone. Also, study how jazz harmony works because this will help you to learn new songs quickly.


Is being a jazz musician a full time job? It seems like nowadays with jazz not being the pop music as it was in the forties that very few musicians actually do touring or survive on just the pay of performing.

Yes, it can be when you consider all the time that goes into it. Its like 2 full time jobs when you add in the time you spend trying to procure work, as well as practice to get ready for upcoming gigs. Also, "jazz musicians" usually do all kinds of gigs in many styles, even the really REALLY good people. Jazz is great to study because if you can get it together, playing a rock or pop gig is pretty simple. I vaguely recall a masterclass where John Patitucci told me one of his first steady gigs was with an Elvis impersonator...


Is a conservatory/school of music education necessary for success as a jazz bassist?

No, but it helps.

Also, I should probably add that the novelty of getting money to play music wore off a while ago. Getting paid to play music isn't fun...playing music is fun by itself. I just want to always be getting better and have time to play. Making a living in music is one possible way for that to happen, but not the only way.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I'm going to be rather coarse and blunt here. I don't think it's impossible to be a career jazz musician at this point but it's very, very, very few who do. I think the one's who are really doing it are composers and band leaders as well. I live in NY and I'll tell you, just about every bass player I know can play the **** out of the bass. Most are university trained. Some have masters degrees, even Phd's. I don't know how old you are, or where you live but If you really want to make it as a jazz musician you are going to have to be very smart about how you go about it and make a very strong plan to reach your goal. In short, that means study. You will have to study the bass and you will have to study music. That means a conservatory. That means getting into a conservatory. That means studying with a excellent classically trained teacher. You can do it. But, like a tennis player wanting to one day win Wimbeldon, you have to start young and it has to be your whole life. People will want to criticize this response as being too serious or harsh or whatever. It's not. To be a serious musician you have to have a serious plan and a maniacal devotion to reach your goal. We're talking about a 'successful' musician which I take to mean a musician that is financially secure.

 

[Marc Piane]

Go into music for the right reason. Because you love it. Even most cats that are 'making a living' playing are making about as much as a assistant manager at Best Buy. I am one of those guys. As someone pointed out playing is a very small part of the equation. Hustling gigs, making connections, drawing up contacts, getting dressed, driving, hauling gear, etc, etc, etc. If you choose to go down that road work on your business skills. Seriously. I know some BAD cats that sit at home because they don't know how to be professionals.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

And equally as harsh, if your current environment doesn't provide the things you NEED (not just want), then you need to move somewhere that the environment does. Moving to the NYC area won't be an easy or cheap life, but I'm sure it's a good place to further challenging yourself to improve once you start getting your chops together.

Otherwise, you'll end up like most of us who have a regular job and try to cram in as much music as possible. I just wish I started playing sooner.

 

[PRUNEFACE]

Unfortunately, with a mother and father that have good reputations in law and medicine (respectively) it is kind of hard to move
I am only a sophomore in high school so going out on my own isn't exactly a possibility either. The jazz band at the high school isn't a true band in the spirit of jazz -the way the director put it to me was that the band is to introduce wind and brass players to jazz. They only play between 3-5 pieces a year, perfecting those few pieces.

I am ready to devote the time; I just need a plan of action to establish a master plan. It's frustrating down here. As I've said, there really are no open mic nights that are open to jazz, finding other jazz musicians that don't have a bassist is difficult, my primary instructor, who is finishing his treatises for a DMA in Double Bass Performance doesn't live in this area (yet.) I've tried contacting many restaurants to no avail as well as the local Pensacola Jazz Society.

 

[Bipslapper]

Unfortunately, with a mother and father that have good reputations in law and medicine (respectively) it is kind of hard to move
I am only a sophomore in high school so going out on my own isn't exactly a possibility either. The jazz band at the high school isn't a true band in the spirit of jazz -the way the director put it to me was that the band is to introduce wind and brass players to jazz. They only play between 3-5 pieces a year, perfecting those few pieces.

I am ready to devote the time; I just need a plan of action to establish a master plan. It's frustrating down here. As I've said, there really are no open mic nights that are open to jazz, finding other jazz musicians that don't have a bassist is difficult, my primary instructor, who is finishing his treatises for a DMA in Double Bass Performance doesn't live in this area (yet.) I've tried contacting many restaurants to no avail as well as the local Pensacola Jazz Society.

I am not a jazz "player" so to speak, but have been playing bass since 1985. I have a day job and play on the side b/c I want to and need to .

I would suggest, if you live in the southeast and can't move to a larger city where jazz is more popular, then try to attend one of the serious bass workshops, like the one Victor Wooten provides in Tennessee (Link Removed). Not too far away, only for a few days and the inspiration and networking would be a great start. If you have the means, this would be a good start. Also, if you are from Pensacola, Fl- chat with the guys at Bass Central, sure they can help.

Good Luck, I admire your ambition.

Pete C.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Prune,

In addition to the already excellent advice above:

Develop leader skills. If you are just a sideman, you'll spend a lot of time waiting for the phone to ring. Learn about music business. Learn about basic business skills. Spend time at places that hire live music, and even more time at places that you think should have live music. Meet as many people as you can. Stay humble. Start selling yourself as soon as you have a working group. Have an amazing business card and demo. Create groups that people will want to hire. Learn about your area's market. Don't ever be too good for a job that pays well, if you want to actually make money. Learn how to play the electric, and sing as well. Pop gigs can pay serious bread; if you ain't on the gig, someone else is. Watch your audience, and make a point of connecting with them. Get a mic and PA and make every effort to treat your audience as if they were guests in your home.

Regarding specifics of the actual performance practice:

Transcribe the big three incessantly- Ray, Ron, and PC. Learn horn solos. Practice 8 hours a day 5 days a week as much as possible. Get lessons with the greatest bassists you can find, even if you have to travel to find them. Learn tunes people want to hear- Sinatra, Ella, and even Buble, Nora Jones, etc... Spend copious time on your tone. Get a bass, amp, and pickup/ mic setup that reproduces the sound in your head. If you haven't already spent considerable time in NYC, CHI, or LA, do it asap. Go to sessions and bring a learning attitude. Be fun to hang out with. Don't ever start thinking you're the sh*t, or people will stop hiring you in a heartbeat.

Finally, if you do something because you love it, and devote your life to it, the rewards will come. You won't be the guy sleeping on silk sheets, but you will be the guy who sleeps easily at night, knowing you have done something you believe in with your life.

 

[Treyzer]

Prune,

In addition to the already excellent advice above:

Develop leader skills. If you are just a sideman, you'll spend a lot of time waiting for the phone to ring. Learn about music business. Learn about basic business skills. Spend time at places that hire live music, and even more time at places that you think should have live music. Meet as many people as you can. Stay humble. Start selling yourself as soon as you have a working group. Have an amazing business card and demo. Create groups that people will want to hire. Learn about your area's market. Don't ever be too good for a job that pays well, if you want to actually make money. Learn how to play the electric, and sing as well. Pop gigs can pay serious bread; if you ain't on the gig, someone else is. Watch your audience, and make a point of connecting with them. Get a mic and PA and make every effort to treat your audience as if they were guests in your home.

Regarding specifics of the actual performance practice:

Transcribe the big three incessantly- Ray, Ron, and PC. Learn horn solos. Practice 8 hours a day 5 days a week as much as possible. Get lessons with the greatest bassists you can find, even if you have to travel to find them. Learn tunes people want to hear- Sinatra, Ella, and even Buble, Nora Jones, etc... Spend copious time on your tone. Get a bass, amp, and pickup/ mic setup that reproduces the sound in your head. If you haven't already spent considerable time in NYC, CHI, or LA, do it asap. Go to sessions and bring a learning attitude. Be fun to hang out with. Don't ever start thinking you're the sh*t, or people will stop hiring you in a heartbeat.

Finally, if you do something because you love it, and devote your life to it, the rewards will come. You won't be the guy sleeping on silk sheets, but you will be the guy who sleeps easily at night, knowing you have done something you believe in with your life.

Beautifully stated Mr. Chi Town Doubler

 

[skipper]

I am not a professional musician; however, my bass teacher is. I am a university administrator, and when I compare my life to my music teacher's, I realize that mine is easier. I have a steady income, benefits, a pension plan, and regular hours. I have tremendous respect for musicians who accept the insecurities of being self-made in their devotion to their art. On the other hand, having the luxury of being employed at a university enables me to enjoy making music as an amateur. I love playing the bass, and it is essential to my emotional and creative well-being. No one should be denied the myriad benefits of expressing his or her artistic side; on the other hand, separating it from the practical side makes good sense, too. For me, making music is all fun. If I had to do it to survive, it would then become work.

 

[TRichardsbass]

I'm gonna dump my two cents here.

First, I don't play jazz, don't really get a lot of jazz but have been a professional musician for 30 years.

There are about the same amount of full time jazz dudes now as there were when I grew up. Jazz has not been "pop" music since the early 1950s. The number of really known jazz musicians can be counted on one or two hands. And most of those guys are about as old as mountains.

There are always opportunities to do it successfully. Tal Wilkenfeld comes to mind. But being a local jazz dude and making a full time living just doing jazz hasn't really existed since the 1950s. Most jazz players I know are in wedding orchestras and bands, in local symphonies and also have side projects with other like minded jazz enthusiasts.

And, truthfully, the opportunity to make a decent living as a professional musician in and of itself is about the same. Cover bands for the most part still barely make enough to pay the bills. Original artists and bands like myself can rarely sustain a living. If you don't make it huge then you are on the road constantly.

I'm not so sure it helps, but honestly, both jazz and rockers have made it big AND went to college. Tom Scholz has a PhD in engineering. Boston was an uber successful band and he also invented the Rockman amplifiers. Steve Ripley is a great picker and also created the Ripley bass, a five string individual string pickup with individual string stereo output.

I will finish by saying that those who are able to focus on any goal are more likely to succeed at it then the rest of us. However, the key is to keep your living expenses to a minimum and pretty much do everything in your power in the area you wish to pursue. But be realistic. Don't expect to be able to actually make enough to support yourself from day one. Be prepared for that. Also, don't expect instant fame and fortune, and don't expect even instant acceptance into your local jazz community. If you can do that, then in a reasonable amount of time you will figure out how to make a living playing jazz.

Hope this helped.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

For me, making music is all fun. If I had to do it to survive, it would then become work.

Well, I can't speak for everyone... but I do it to survive, and I enjoy it immensely.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Now, making a living playing jazz while teaching, doing workshops, working part time at the coffee shop or painting houses. THAT is possible. I was addressing the "career as a jazz musician" head on.

 

[PRUNEFACE]

See, I love the advice I am getting! I really don't know what I would do without talkbass. Now time to begin acting on some of it.

 

[FMartin]

Here's my $0,02:

As a jazz musician, you know your chances of getting into collecting Porsche 911 of every colour are a bit thinner than a banker's (or a rock star's, for that matter), but be sure it's definitely worth it, so, welcome, and enjoy the ride!