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A devastating response to the "free music" generation.

The arguments both for and against illegal downloading lack the single most important thing:

If you don't have a solution to offer you are simply pontificating from a false moral high-ground.
Why? I don't have a solution for the Middle East conflict either - that doesn't automatically mean I am on false moral high ground when I discuss that situation. (although that is certainly possible).

But here's a solution: Stop making music for money. Make music for the sake of music. Start making music for yourself.

Anyone remember those records by likes Eddie Murphy, Paris Hilton and Patrick Duffy? The one good thing that has come out of all this, is that at least we have gotten rid of all these entertainment types who saw music as a quick cash-in.

At least anyone going into music now goes into it for the music. That should be a blessing for the music being made in the next decades.
 
To add to my previous response, when you try on a pair of pants in a store you're allowed to try them on for as long as you want as long as you stay in the store and you get to try on the exact pants you're about to buy, not a weaker, watered down version (unless you count the tags. I don't).

do they shrink when I wash them? Mine usually do. So the 'trial' at the store isn't a 'real world' trial. Plus, maybe I want to hike in them.
 
I see morality as absolute. There is right and there is wrong. Certainly there are situations where one moral imperative collides with another, but I can't see how that could possibly apply to stealing music.



Not sure anyone with even a basic grasp of right and wrong could possibly see how that is morally justifiable.

Morality is not absolute. It's simply a system of beliefs, generally socially accepted, that have been developed from one's environment. Not everyone shares the same system of beliefs, and as such there is no absolute moral rulebook. Likewise, people saying filesharing is stealing doesn't outright make it so. Theft is not as cut and dry in the virtual realm as it is in the physical realm, and sharing someone else's list of 0's and 1's doesn't have simple negative consequences.

<Edit> The analogies everyone is using to equate digital files to physical objects are inaccurate. Downloading music isn't like stealing a bottle of gin. It's more analogous to printing out a digital copy of a famous photograph for your own enjoyment. How many of you have a famous painting or photo as the background on your desktop? How many of you paid the original artist for that picture? </edit>

That being said, if you don't agree with morality being a relative concept, then I highly doubt I'm going to be able to change your mind on an internet message board, and seeing as how we're getting very close to outright attacking somebody's religion in that context, I'll respectfully bow out of the argument.

I'll leave you with the fact that I value knowledge over pure capitalism, and I don't believe any amount of knowledge should be "owned" by one person or an exclusive group of people. I've read Faulkner and Dickens thanks to filesharing. I can look at a high def picture of the Sistine Chapel thanks to file sharing, and I can listen to Mozart's Requiem because of filesharing. Is such a spread of knowledge really less important than some record exec stuffing his pockets?
 
BobaFret said:
do they shrink when I wash them? Mine usually do. So the 'trial' at the store isn't a 'real world' trial. Plus, maybe I want to hike in them.

Shrinkage can rarely be accounted for anyway. You just have to guess. Maybe I've just been lung but my clothes shrink very little and even then they settle in pretty quick. So, as far as I'm concerned it is a real world trial limited only by the area I'm restricted to. If I'm out in nature there a very good chance I'm wearing cargos which, in my book, cannot be made to be uncomfortable, regardless or other factors :p.
 
Morality is not absolute. It's simply a system of beliefs, generally socially accepted, that have been developed from one's environment. Not everyone shares the same system of beliefs, and as such there is no absolute moral rulebook. Likewise, people saying filesharing is stealing doesn't outright make it so. Theft is not as cut and dry in the virtual realm as it is in the physical realm, and sharing someone else's list of 0's and 1's doesn't have simple negative consequences.

That being said, if you don't agree with morality being a relative concept, then I highly doubt I'm going to be able to change your mind on an internet message board, and seeing as how we're getting very close to outright attacking somebody's religion in that context, I'll respectfully bow out of the argument.

I'll leave you with the fact that I value knowledge over pure capitalism, and I don't believe any amount of knowledge should be "owned" by one person or an exclusive group of people. I've read Faulkner and Dickens thanks to filesharing. I can look at a high def picture of the Sistine Chapel thanks to file sharing, and I can listen to Mozart's Requiem because of filesharing. Is such a spread of knowledge really less important than some record exec stuffing his pockets?

The idea that you are only harming record execs is wrong, because you harm artists as well. You also line the pockets of people like Kim Dotcom, who actively seek to profit by maintaining virtual black markets. Record execs might be slimy, greedy and corrupt, but at least they write checks to musicians.
 
Shrinkage can rarely be accounted for anyway. You just have to guess. Maybe I've just been lung but my clothes shrink very little and even then they settle in pretty quick. So, as far as I'm concerned it is a real world trial limited only by the area I'm restricted to. If I'm out in nature there a very good chance I'm wearing cargos which, in my book, cannot be made to be uncomfortable, regardless or other factors :p.

:D
 
theretheyare said:
But here's a solution: Stop making music for money. Make music for the sake of music. Start making music for yourself.

Anyone remember those records by likes Eddie Murphy, Paris Hilton and Patrick Duffy? The one good thing that has come out of all this, is that at least we have gotten rid of all these entertainment types who saw music as a quick cash-in.

1) There is a large number of quality musical artists making music simply for the sake of music. I often donate money to them. The majority of them seem to be very involved in "internet culture" when're you would like what hey have to offer or not os a completely different issue though.

2) Cash in artists have certainly not stopped, they've just decreased. Besides, if an already well known actor dropped an album of some kindof of album that wasn't absolute trash, it would make money.
 
The idea that you are only harming record execs is wrong, because you harm artists as well. You also line the pockets of people like Kim Dotcom, who actively seek to profit by maintaining virtual black markets. Record execs might be slimy, greedy and corrupt, but at least they write checks to musicians.

The damage done to artists is minimal if they adapt to the changing marketplace. The record execs write checks to artists working within an outdated system. Artists who know how to adapt and work within new models that take advantage of free exchange are doing better than ever. Google Dan Bull and "Sharing is Caring" for one such example.

Okay, I said I was bowing out and I really am before this gets overly heated.
 
Why? I don't have a solution for the Middle East conflict either - that doesn't automatically mean I am on false moral high ground when I discuss that situation. (although that is certainly possible).

But here's a solution: Stop making music for money. Make music for the sake of music. Start making music for yourself.

Anyone remember those records by likes Eddie Murphy, Paris Hilton and Patrick Duffy? The one good thing that has come out of all this, is that at least we have gotten rid of all these entertainment types who saw music as a quick cash-in.

At least anyone going into music now goes into it for the music. That should be a blessing for the music being made in the next decades.

I agree with this. But I will always pay for any music I wish to own. Unless the artist themselves offers it to me for free (and I want to accept it).
 
Why? I don't have a solution for the Middle East conflict either - that doesn't automatically mean I am on false moral high ground when I discuss that situation. (although that is certainly possible).

But here's a solution: Stop making music for money. Make music for the sake of music. Start making music for yourself.

Anyone remember those records by likes Eddie Murphy, Paris Hilton and Patrick Duffy? The one good thing that has come out of all this, is that at least we have gotten rid of all these entertainment types who saw music as a quick cash-in.

At least anyone going into music now goes into it for the music. That should be a blessing for the music being made in the next decades.

Imagine if the kinds of arguments here were used with respect to the mid-east: e.g., well, it's too late now, so those who are in the midst of war should find a new model for living.

Entertainment types are still going for the quick cash-in. Sadly, they're often getting the best deals and making the most money since the investors (labels) feel more comfortable taking a risk on their pre-established market value. That's going to increase, not decrease, in this climate.

I've always made music for myself. What I can say from my personal experience is that I've written beautiful songs that were recorded the affordable way. I've also written mediocre songs that were given the the full label treatment. At the end of the day, those mediocre songs sound better. Why? Because the money was spent to make them the best they could sound. Music is not done favors when financial support is reduced.
 
My problems with illegal file sharing:

1. There is still a ton of money changing hands, but none of it goes to the artists. This is not about a "free exchange of ideas", this is about people looking to profit off of others work without compensation.

PirateBay makes $14 million per month. Kim Dotcom is a BILLIONAIRE, though thankfully he's an incarcerated billionaire. Sean Parker is worth $2.5 billion.

There's a big difference between these guys...

Google, Verizon, Comcast, AT&T, etc. all make huge sums of money by supporting illegal file sharing.

and these guys.

To make an analogy: the file-sharing sites operate meeting halls where stolen goods are exchanged, google sells maps of how to get anywhere (including to the meeting halls) and sells ad space on billboards (without caring what goes on inside the building the billboard is mounted on), and the carriers operate the roads that all traffic - legal or otherwise - drives on.

Invalid Link Removed

The big difference is in how much of their business is built on illegally sharing files. Google and the big carriers basically are neutral about it - one location on a map is the same as another, a car carrying stolen goods is the same as one taking someone's kids to school, a billboard on the side of a grocery store is the same as one on the side of a meth lab. You can say that they should care more and get actively involved, but to put them into the same category as the file sharing sites is unreasonable.

2. The notion that there's nothing that can be done about it. There is. It is a crime

Sometimes it is a criminal issue, sometimes it's a civil issue. There's a whole bunch of somewhat fuzzy factors that determine which side of the line it falls. (in the US).

and ISPs should be involved in fighting it. They should readily hand over the IP addresses of downloaders

The IP address is usually easy to find, it's the identity that's the problem. ISPs have a legal duty to protect their users' privacy so can't just hand over names and addresses to anyone who asks. There has to be a request from law enforcement / a court order to get the info, and 99.9% of the time, an ISP will comply when they get the correct paperwork. Without that paperwork, they're the ones in danger of being sued.

The ISPs like to say they are for the "free exchange of ideas" and they don't want to "limit free speech",

Some parties - usually the ones directly involved in file sharing - are using these kinds of arguments as a fig leaf. Others are basically saying that there are way more legitimate uses of the technology than illegitimate ones and damaging legitimate uses to eliminate illegitimates uses is an unacceptable degree of collateral damage. There's a trade-off and there are a bunch of very reasonable arguments for drawing the line in one place or another.

but see what they're saying when it's they're software codes that are being freely traded.

Just as a side note for clarity's sake, an ISP is usually not someone who writes software code. ISPs are more like people who build a toll road between your town and the freeway. Google is not an ISP, Megaupload is not an ISP, ATT is an ISP (and a bunch of other stuff besides).

The RIAA shouldn't have to sue anyone. If someone steals your car, the cops do what they can to figure out who did it and the DA does what they can to put that person in jail. Imagine if your car was stolen and it was up to you to find out who took it, and then you needed to find a lawyer and sue them to get your own car back.

There's a couple of differences between illegal file sharing and this scenario - first the "is it civil or is it criminal?" issue, and second that if your car has gone that's definite proof that a crime has been committed. If someone copies a file you don't know about it unless you're looking in the right place at the right time.

Why is it out of touch to regard morals as constant? In this case, to regard stealing as wrong?

(Please don't assume from anything I say here that I'm for or against "free music" - I make my living from intellectual property as well - in my case hardware and the software that runs on it so this attitude affects my ability to pay the mortgage just as much as it does a working musician)

It's not so much that people have stopped regarding stealing as wrong but they don't regard copyright infringement as stealing. Which, for about 94% of human history, it hasn't been. Physical property has been recognised since before recorded history, but this stuff? People just let an idea out into the world, and ... that was it. It was everyone's. So, morality - or at least law and social attitude - hasn't been constant here.

Copyright (and patents, and the suchlike) are a relatively new invention and they're generally good - it lets you and me pay our bills and lets society share the cost of the stuff we create evenly between the people who benefit from it.

But maybe, just maybe, things might need a little tweaking? Parties on both sides are trying to use the technological change in their interests and get the line redrawn in their favor. It's not just downloaders getting stuff without paying for it, it's publishers selling stuff and removing people's right to resell it (or even read it out loud in certain extreme cases).

There's a lot of change going on. I try and stay on top of the issues as best I can but still haven't a clue where it's going to end up.
 
The damage done to artists is minimal if they adapt to the changing marketplace. The record execs write checks to artists working within an outdated system. Artists who know how to adapt and work within new models that take advantage of free exchange are doing better than ever. Google Dan Bull and "Sharing is Caring" for one such example.

Okay, I said I was bowing out and I really am before this gets overly heated.

How is the damage done to artists minimal? The lost income from recording is simply that: lost income. People aren't going to more concerts or buying more t-shirts. How do you back-up the idea that artists who adapt to the "new models" are doing better than ever? Everything I've seen on the subject says exactly the opposite.
 
Technology is also making it a LOT cheaper to record an album. The DIY movement is blowing up and honestly I see it as a very exciting time to be able to make a living with music.

The real model that's gone is the model of a 50k/year salary being "making it" in life. The young generation (which I'm in) has little to no excitement about buying realestate. And most of us think of retirement as something that probably won't happen.

DIY for life!
 
Imagine if the kinds of arguments here were used with respect to the mid-east: e.g., well, it's too late now, so those who are in the midst of war should find a new model for living.

Yes, absolutely true!

Entertainment types are still going for the quick cash-in. Sadly, they're often getting the best deals and making the most money since the investors (labels) feel more comfortable taking a risk on their pre-established market value. That's going to increase, not decrease, in this climate.

yes but they are not doing the actual cash-in in music anymore. What we do see recently is people making atrocious records in order to gain some notoriety so they can start a fashion line or perfume line to cash in on. OK, a slight improvement ;-)

I've always made music for myself. What I can say from my personal experience is that I've written beautiful songs that were recorded the affordable way. I've also written mediocre songs that were given the the full label treatment. At the end of the day, those mediocre songs sound better. Why? Because the money was spent to make them the best they could sound. Music is not done favors when financial support is reduced.

I hear you on that - but at the end of the day, nowadays we can record properly on a budget much better than, say, 20 years ago (i still remember the 4 track Fostex cassette player). At least in my area (jazz and improv) around 2007 a production budget by a midsize label was about $50K. We did it ourselves instead for 5K per project, incl. paying the musicians and studio. I have no reason to believe they would have been massively better sounding records through a label, and they did really well, press-wise

For me the best commercially available CD that I have been involved with was the cheapest to make - but I like to think that had something to do with us getting better at making records...;-)
 
This is starting to get silly. If you don't buy the music how on Earth is tha artist doing better than ever. Maybe they got a better day job than ever but they are not gaining anything from making the music, and all of you that think this will be good because then people will make music for themselves will only be able to enjoy your own music cause all of the sudden the people that have been putting out albums will stop because they've already made their money and there won't be any reason to put the effort and money into making more just for you to steal. I enjoy small time albums and artist as well, but those are the ones that need it the most, because after they record their music and put it out there for you to share they go clock-in at their job. In the end all of the people that are stealing will continue to steal until someone figures out a way to catch you and all the honest people will continue to be honest. How you feel about that is entirely up to you.
 
I tell my son that stealing something that's inexpensive isn't okay because of the nominal cost; it just makes you cheap & it's degrading to you that you stole something so inexpensive.

In the grand scheme of things, I think independent music will survive on a grass-roots, garage level while its purveyors keep their day-jobs, and a few will break through to be sponsored by whoever still has money, to find 30 seconds of their one song (not album) used in a car commercial. Good luck to us all.
 
Technology is also making it a LOT cheaper to record an album. The DIY movement is blowing up and honestly I see it as a very exciting time to be able to make a living with music.

The real model that's gone is the model of a 50k/year salary being "making it" in life. The young generation (which I'm in) has little to no excitement about buying realestate. And most of us think of retirement as something that probably won't happen.

DIY for life!

I thought like that when I was 20. The model isn't gone, it just hasn't hit home for you yet.