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A devastating response to the "free music" generation.

#181
ubermiguel said:
Thought experiment: I illegally download albums I would never actually pay real money for (i.e.: want to hear an album before deciding if I like it or not). Did the artist suffer because of it? Am I stealing?
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Not really if you only listen to it once, decide its crap and delete the files forever then its about equivalent to listening to previewing it on Youtube. When you pay for any music media your paying not only for the music but free reign of those files to basically do as you please. When you look at anything on Youtube you forfeit everything but the ability to listen to it and even that can't be done at you'd leisure - there are limitations.
 
#182
ubermiguel said:
Thought experiment: I illegally download albums I would never actually pay real money for (i.e.: want to hear an album before deciding if I like it or not). Did the artist suffer because of it? Am I stealing?
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There are SO MANY legal avenues for you to hear music before buying that this defense just doesn't hold water. You can stream on Pandora, Spotify, etc., you can listen to samples on iTunes or Amazon, you can listen to samples (usually full songs) on most bands' websites... Besides all of that, even if none of those options were available, you don't have a right to listen to music before you buy it. Most artists choose to give you that privilege because they know it leads to more sales, but the choice is theirs and they have the right to control the way in which you get those samples.
 
#183
considering everyone on this site is a musician of some type I'm really surprised at how many seem to make excuses for why it's fine to steal. Just because punishment is unlikely doesn't make it legal.
 
#186
beggar98 said:
I see morality as absolute. There is right and there is wrong. Certainly there are situations where one moral imperative collides with another, but I can't see how that could possibly apply to stealing music.

Not sure anyone with even a basic grasp of right and wrong could possibly see how that is morally justifiable. Where do you draw the line? Do you make sure the band has recouped their recording costs yet and are actually profiting from the recording? What about when a major label buys an indie label, is the indie label's catalog then fair game? How is that the fault of the artist?
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I do not believe morality is absolute, simply a strong set of beliefs that an individual follows that are entirely subject to change depending on ones environment and thought processes.

I don't think of what I do as ok, I just don't care. I'm usually a hypocrite and tell people to buy all their music. The only reason I care to say I do it here is because I m fairly sure I wont change anyones opinion. The only thing I check is the artists revenue and or net worth. If their millionaires, I'm clear if not, I don't. Basically, if I haven't seen them on MTV or heard them on the radio I don't do it. Of course, whether or not I like the artist as a person factors in occasionally. If, for whatever reason I wanted a System of a Down CD (or the vast majority of rappers) there's no way I'd pay for it. Im more likely to pay for artists whom I like and respect.
 
#187
The arguments both for and against illegal downloading lack the single most important thing:

A SOLUTION FOR THE ARTISTS

The arguments on both sides tend to be littered with anecdotes and falsified claims and "stats". How it's good for the artist (laughable). How it's the sole reason music is on the decline (laughable). But, what is it that no one brings to the table? A viable solution for artists.

I honestly believe that if you are a part of this argument, on either side, and cannot provide a new financial model that will allow artists to continue their craft, then your argument is a failure. You are on the Titanic arguing about whether it's the captain's fault or the iceberg's fault.

Not everything survives watershed moments. Not everything evolves. Many things simply die. The arguments over the morality, the ethics, the new model, the old model, who did what, who's to blame, why my opinion is right, etc. are all worthless without a solution.

If you don't have a solution to offer you are simply pontificating from a false moral high-ground.
 
#188
Since we're trying thought experiments, here are two:

1. The apartment above mine is significantly nicer than mine. I live in a one bedroom on the ground floor with no views, the one above mince is a recently remodeled three bedroom with ocean views. It is currently vacant. I should be able to move in there until they rent it to someone else, right? I'm not really taking anything from them, because they wouldn't have been making any money off it anyway. I should also not have to pay any rent on my one bedroom, seeing as how I'm not using it.

2. Every night when you go to bed, I take your car. I drive it for 6 hours, putting about 200 miles on your car. I return it with exactly as much gas as it had when I took it. By your logic, this should be OK. I haven't taken anything from you, I simply used something of yours, without your permission, that you weren't using. Sure, the mileage I put on your car hurts the value, just like illegal downloading hurts the value of recorded media, but it clearly isn't stealing, since you got your car back. It's simply unfair use, which isn't a crime, right?
 
#189
BobaFret said:
Another example is software. If I try it out for free (i.e steal it) and decide I don't like it and uninstall it, I'm still a thief.
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The problem with software is the lack of the ability to try the full version before hand. Sure there are trails but those often have pretty serious limitations. How would anyone be able to know exactly what their getting and how much they would likest without taking a music production class? There's virtually no other way.
 
#190
Kwesi said:
The problem with software is the lack of the ability to try the full version before hand. Sure there are trails but those often have pretty serious limitations. How would anyone be able to know exactly what their getting and how much they would likest without taking a music production class? There's virtually no other way.
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Exactly. Does Levi's let me wear their jeans for a day for free, just to try them out? How do I know if I like them?
 
#191
ubermiguel said:
Thought experiment: I illegally download albums I would never actually pay real money for (i.e.: want to hear an album before deciding if I like it or not). Did the artist suffer because of it? Am I stealing?
Click to expand...
You would actually not pay for it because today you don't have to. Back in the day you might get lucky and a radio station would play an entire album upon release but most bought an album either on the reputation of an artist, reading a review or after hearing the songs after the tour came to town.

After buying you decided if it was good or not. I got burned a few times in the disco era when a song I wanted was not the mix used on the album.
 
#192
beggar98 said:
Since we're trying thought experiments, here are two:

1. The apartment above mine is significantly nicer than mine. I live in a one bedroom on the ground floor with no views, the one above mince is a recently remodeled three bedroom with ocean views. It is currently vacant. I should be able to move in there until they rent it to someone else, right? I'm not really taking anything from them, because they wouldn't have been making any money off it anyway. I should also not have to pay any rent on my one bedroom, seeing as how I'm not using it.

2. Every night when you go to bed, I take your car. I drive it for 6 hours, putting about 200 miles on your car. I return it with exactly as much gas as it had when I took it. By your logic, this should be OK. I haven't taken anything from you, I simply used something of yours, without your permission, that you weren't using. Sure, the mileage I put on your car hurts the value, just like illegal downloading hurts the value of recorded media, but it clearly isn't stealing, since you got your car back. It's simply unfair use, which isn't a crime, right?
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In both cases if you put in something for maintenance for the apartment or the car, I wouldn't care. Of course, that's assuming you don't completely trash either. The principles surrounding theft of product vs theft of property work a bit differently as well. Both theft, yes, but difficult to compare. Again, I never said it's right, in fact I'd say it IS wrong, I just don't care enough to stop.
 
#193
Kwesi said:
In both cases if you put in something for maintenance for the apartment or the car, I wouldn't care. Of course, that's assuming you don't completely trash either. The principles surrounding theft of product vs theft of property work a bit differently as well. Both theft, yes, but difficult to compare. Again, I never said it's right, in fact I'd say it IS wrong, I just don't care enough to stop.
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At least you can admit you're doing something wrong, you just don't care enough about musicians to stop stealing from them.
 
#194
BobaFret said:
Exactly. Does Levi's let me wear their jeans for a day for free, just to try them out? How do I know if I like them?
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I don't know about you, but it takes me about 15 seconds to figure out whether I like a pair of pants or not. Put em on, put on a belt, strut, done. Figuring out software from scratch is typically much more difficult. Id say most folks aren't too keen on dropping $200-500 on something they are completely unfamiliar with. DAW plugins generally have better trail periods than the Saws themselves in terms of the capabilities you get during the trail in comparison to the full product.
 
#197
Kwesi said:
I don't know about you, but it takes me about 15 seconds to figure out whether I like a pair of pants or not. Put em on, put on a belt, strut, done. Figuring out software from scratch is typically much more difficult. Id say most folks aren't too keen on dropping $200-500 on something they are completely unfamiliar with. DAW plugins generally have better trail periods than the Saws themselves in terms of the capabilities you get during the trail in comparison to the full product.
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But why do you think you're entitled to try it at all? It's up to the retailer to decide if you get to try before you buy, not the customer.
 

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