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A good question asked by a student

#41
I wouldn't used Wikipedia as an authoritative source for music knowledge. From everything I've read and heard, the two issues were the fact that due to his drinking problems, he could not be relied upon to make sessions - no different than other Motown studio musicians who lost work. Second issue was the sound of his bass. Listen to this:



Beautiful playing, but the sound of the bass is dead, compared to the brighter sound that was in vogue at the time. I've never heard of a bassist who couldn't get a gig because he didn't slap.
 
#42
Whousedtoplay said:
Per your request, let's "revise" the wiki statement:

"But as other musicians went on to use high-tech amps, round-wound strings, and simpler, more repetitive (the text is visible when highlighted only- WUTP) bass lines incorporating new techniques like thumb slapping, Jamerson's style fell out of favor with local producers and he found himself reluctant to try new things. By the 1980s he was unable to get any serious gigs working as a session musician.
Click to expand...

He found himself reluctant to try new things.

It doesn't matter if other musicians went on to use high-tech amps, round-wound strings, and simpler, repetitive bass lines incorporating new techniques like thumb slapping.

If you are reluctant to try new things, your style will fall out of favor and you will be unable to get any serious gigs.

There are countless session musicians that have adapted and survived. Jamerson wasn't one of them. Because he found himself reluctant to try new things, whatever those new things are.
 
#43
buldog5151bass said:
I wouldn't used Wikipedia as an authoritative source for music knowledge. From everything I've read and heard, the two issues were the fact that due to his drinking problems, he could not be relied upon to make sessions - no different than other Motown studio musicians who lost work. Second issue was the sound of his bass. Listen to this:



Beautiful playing, but the sound of the bass is dead, compared to the brighter sound that was in vogue at the time. I've never heard of a bassist who couldn't get a gig because he didn't slap.
Click to expand...


Please tell me what do you REALLY think about the following James bass-line?
 
#44
Jon Moody said:
He found himself reluctant to try new things.

It doesn't matter if other musicians went on to use high-tech amps, round-wound strings, and simpler, repetitive bass lines incorporating new techniques like thumb slapping.

If you are reluctant to try new things, your style will fall out of favor and you will be unable to get any serious gigs.

There are countless session musicians that have adapted and survived. Jamerson wasn't one of them. Because he found himself reluctant to try new things, whatever those new things are.
Click to expand...

To my regret but I truly believe that the following "BEAUTIFUL" James Jamerson's bass-line could be TOO busy in nowadays POP music world.
 
#45
There are many answers to this question.

I have read multiple interviews with respected pro players who have said: "What I don't play is as important to what I do play." I'm just now, after many years of playing, beginning to understand what that means.

For the OP's student, I would suggest listening to an ensemble recording with the student which includes the student's bassline, and then asking the student if it sounds like he/she thought they were a) contributing to the groove and feel, b) emphasizing the right beats and/or leaving appropriate rests, and c) playing as a member of the team or as someone more interested in displaying their chops.

I have listened to rehearsal recordings where I have both underplayed and overplayed. The ultimate feedback loop is listening. As above. IMHO, YMMV, ETC.
 
#46
Trends come and go. If you really want to be succesful, especially as a session player, you need to follow the trends. If James Jamerson stopped getting sessions because he didn't want to evolve his playing, that's his own fault. There was also the fact that he was an unreliable session player due to drinking, but that was talked about already.

Also, Whousedtoplay, why do you use so much bold and capitalization in your posts? A little bit is fine, but too much makes your post look kinda messy.
 
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#48
superiorpine said:
There are many answers to this question.

I have read multiple interviews with respected pro players who have said: "What I don't play is as important to what I do play." I'm just now, after many years of playing, beginning to understand what that means.

For the OP's student, I would suggest listening to an ensemble recording with the student which includes the student's bassline, and then asking the student if it sounds like he/she thought they were a) contributing to the groove and feel, b) emphasizing the right beats and/or leaving appropriate rests, and c) playing as a member of the team or as someone more interested in displaying their chops.

I have listened to rehearsal recordings where I have both underplayed and overplayed. The ultimate feedback loop is listening. As above. IMHO, YMMV, ETC.
Click to expand...

A very good point of recording(!!!) and listening to it, but...
Your comment IMHO misses one point - the HUMAN factor.

You answer is suggesting that there is just ONE and Final Bass-line - The "Perfection" but...

It could be NUMEROUS (but different) "close-to-perfect" bass-lines for the same song, especially if it's an ORIGINAL song.
What's a "perfect" bass-line for somebody, it could be a not so perfect bass-line for somebody else.
 
#50
I'm not convinced that JJ's style went out of favor in the 70s. There are too many examples to list of people imitating his style in the 70s and after.

Sure, he didn't want to evolve and that hurt him badly. But the fact is that most session players could do a pretty decent Jamerson by the time he got to LA... and they could also do other sounds and styles.

What really killed his career, in my opinion, is that nobody outside of a small circle of people, mostly session bassists, even knew who he was. His style had been figured out. There were other guys that could do it and they showed up sober and on time. Some of them probably didn't even know who James Jamerson was.

In Detroit, Jamerson was the biggest fish in the pond. LA was an ocean. He simply just drowned.

Saddest story, IMO.
 
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#51
Whousedtoplay said:
Now, how often do you apply/use that "vision" YOURSELF?
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My approach is pure laziness.
I generally seek the minimal required groove , then spend a lot of time listening.
I don't add anything until my ears tell me "something cool could go here"
and even then, other band members may pull out the veto (which I don't ego over.)

This does however require the drummer ( & everyone else ) to also be fairly consistent in their own choices.
 
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#52
mambo4 said:
My approach is pure laziness.
I generally seek the minimal required groove , then spend a lot of time listening.
I don't add anything until my ears tell me "something cool could go here"
and even then, other band members may pull out the veto (which I don't ego over.)

This does however require the drummer ( & everyone else ) to also be fairly consistent in their own choices.
Click to expand...

I would not call it "pure laziness".
It's your style, individuality, your vision of the bass-line, etc..., but there are also different styles, individuality types, different visions, different approaches.
We have the Great Steve Swallow and the Great Gary Willis.
 
#54
Matt O said:
I'm not convinced that JJ's style went out of favor in the 70s. There are too many examples to list of people imitating his style in the 70s and after.
Click to expand...

When I listen to the Great Bass Player James Jameson it's like opening a time capsule.
Some could call his bass-lines obsolete, some (like me) could call it an example of something "Valuable and PRECIOUS" antique.

P.S. Some people go nuts about old cars and spend a lot of money to obtain them.
 
#55
I don't know that it's possible to understand what overplaying is or isn't until you've played long enough to just know. "It's all about the feel of the music and serving the song." Well that's great advice, except that when I was younger I thought serving the song was filling up all the space with intricate basslines. There's ultimately no right or wrong... what you think is overplaying someone else might think is perfect. What you think is perfect someone else might see as too much. As others have said, take cues from your bandmates. If they give you a look, or give each other a look, every time you do that wank-happy bit in the bridge, consider toning it down. If you get compliments after the show from layperson audience members who just couldn't get enough of those double stops in the verse, by all means, keep it up. But we all know we've never gotten that feedback.

I recently cut the bass for a new track, and a fellow bass player who heard it made a few comments to the guitar player about how he would've added this here or that there. Maybe so. But I laid down a simple bassline that fully serves the song and holds down the groove. We made a music video out of footage from that day of recording, and I'm barely in it because I was finished in one take. The producer went out of his way to shake my hand when I was finished with my track and told me he wished he had a bass player like me in his band. At first, I thought he was being sarcastic and making fun of me, because I hadn't done anything particularly impressive at all. Then it hit me that the impressive part of my performance was that it wasn't a headache to record, it didn't take all day, and it sounds killer in the mix. He's used to dealing with guys who either can't play or overplay everything, so he was ecstatic to work with me. I was proud of that.

Don't be afraid that if you keep it simple people will forget about you.

Jacob
 
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#59
Think of it like lines in a play. Sometimes you need a monologue, sometimes a quick back and forth dialogue, and sometimes no words. Depends on the mood you want and the point you want to make. Overplaying is akin to upstaging. Subtle or not, it is the musical equivalent of vying for attention and or admiration, when you should be focused on the overall performance.
 

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