A Lousy Sonic Experience

[pbass2]

Too bad you didn't see the problem until the end (not that I would have either!)--you coulda walked over and rolled off some lows from the guitar amp Mighta helped. Twins can be monstrous sounding, like, TOO big.

 

[LowActionHero]

Sound waves can do some crazy things. My band started a set and right away I noticed this weird howling sound when ever I was hitting the E string hard. The guitarist and drummer kept looking at me like it was my rig which it was not. Turned out the guitarists acoustic on a stand out from me was picking up the bass sound waves and feeding back. We got the soundman to cut the guitars feed and all was good.

I had something similar happen. The PA would feedback kinda low when I hit a certain note, but I wasnt in the PA. We figured out which mic it was, THEN figured out it was when I hit that note. Turned my amp a lil to the left and slid a pad under it and it was fine. (one of those flimsy feeling portable stages.)

 

[Ubersheist]

Exactly. I have one right on my board...that I also use as a mute switch

...or have a clip on tuner and turn off the volume on your bass? I'm not sure what the difference would be!

 

[awilkie84]

...or have a clip on tuner and turn off the volume on your bass? I'm not sure what the difference would be!

I've found clip-on tuners unreliable, especially when there is other noise around to vibrate your bass...and the added mute is nice to have at your foot for when you unplug an active bass between sets...no loud POP from your amp or PA.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Plug-and-play gig...acts on the main stage all day, three to five minutes between each. We pre-tuned off stage; further, the tuning itself was not at issue. In point of fact, it probably would have sounded better if we'd been a little further out of tune. The beating came from the difference in our attacks, when a string goes out of tune by some tiny, indeterminate amount before settling into a pitch. Attack -> beat frequencies -> utter cancellation, in that order...but only on open A and open E. No other notes cancelled, most likely because of intonation differences between the instruments. The bass I used (Yamaha TRBX505) had recently been put through a full setup, and the intonation is as close as it's likely to get. I have zero doubt the stage monitors contributed greatly to the cancellation we were getting on stage, and as mentioned above, that could easily have been a phase issue compounding the problem. But the bass player that went on after me - having moved the guitar amp - appeared to be suffering no ill effects.

I did discover mid-set that the problem remitted slightly if I avoided open A or E altogether, instead fretting them on the B or E strings, but it didn't get better by much. In an annoying way, it turned out to be good testament to the accuracy of the intonation!



No worries, Broke. I've been playing bass for closer to 40 years and my understanding isn't much beyond your own! Jokes aside, all that physics of sound hoo-ha can get real in a hurry. In this case, it bit us...but the show went on, and nobody (not even the musicians in the audience) were any the wiser. Thankfully.

You missed my point. When you thought it was the issue, it would have made checking it out faster and more transparent. Even for a "plug and play" gig, inserting a tuner between your bass and the amp provided should prove no slower in setup.

 

[Engle]

.

Also, it finally gave me a reason to be grateful for tunes in the keys of Bb and Eb, so that was a plus.

Now THATS saying something...[/QUOTE]
Try playing an upright - Bb and Eb are actually nicer keys to play in.

 

[BrewsterRooster]

You missed my point. When you thought it was the issue, it would have made checking it out faster and more transparent. Even for a "plug and play" gig, inserting a tuner between your bass and the amp provided should prove no slower in setup.

Uh...yes?

We tend to apply that wisdom on routine engagements, but in this case we were directed to be ready to hit the stage running - after we and our guitars were shuttled in from the parking area 1/2 mile away. Plug in, count 4, and drop the beat. I don't suppose any of us had the precognition of a sonic anomaly that would cleverly masquerade as a tuning issue but wasn't, though your point (rhetorical as it is) cannot legitimately be argued. We'll endeavor to do better next time.

Apologies. I let my smartass get away from me there...

 

[LowActionHero]

Now THATS saying something...

Try playing an upright - Bb and Eb are actually nicer keys to play in.[/QUOTE]

Why do you say that for an upright? Only played one once.

I'm sure my main problem with Eb is mostly because I would rather play down low than the 6th fret, although I recently put a drop D extender on my main bass. My band never plays in Eb tho. I used to play guitar with a piano player that preferred Eb, from sheet music.

 

[BAG]

I had something similar happen. The PA would feedback kinda low when I hit a certain note, but I wasnt in the PA. We figured out which mic it was, THEN figured out it was when I hit that note. Turned my amp a lil to the left and slid a pad under it and it was fine. (one of those flimsy feeling portable stages.)

I had a similar problem in a small bar open mic night a friend was running. Every time we went to a G there was a loud bottom end sound. I turned down a bit and it was still there. My wife kept telling me I was too loud until I turned completely down and stopped playing even holding my hands in the air to show her it wasn't me. It was the acoustic guitar. Due to the basic nature of the desk it was all but impossible to tune out in the very short space of time we had.

 

[BrewsterRooster]

Try playing an upright - Bb and Eb are actually nicer keys to play in.

Why is that?

Try playing an upright - Bb and Eb are actually nicer keys to play in.[/QUOTE]

Why do you say that for an upright?

I'm sure my main problem with Eb is mostly because I would rather play down low than the 6th fret, although I recently put a drop D extender on my main bass. My band never plays in Eb tho. I used to play guitar with a piano player that preferred Eb[/QUOTE]

My rhythm player, who is also an upright player, told me the exact same thing. He used to play a lot of rockabilly on his upright, and I gathered from what he said that when running what are effectively boogie-woogie type lines (1-3-5-6-7 sort of stuff), in Bb major you get the advantage of two open strings for pitch reference (D and G), and in Eb major you get the advantage of one (G). I think he preferred having those "inside" notes as reference pitches, as opposed to having an open string as a tonic (such as you might get in the keys of E or A).

I'm sure the upright guys will have a more complete answer. I have dinked around on the instrument but I sure don't claim any real level of proficiency.

 

[LowActionHero]

My rhythm player, who is also an upright player, told me the exact same thing. He used to play a lot of rockabilly on his upright, and I gathered from what he said that when running what are effectively boogie-woogie type lines (1-3-5-6-7 sort of stuff), in Bb major you get the advantage of two open strings for pitch reference (D and G), and in Eb major you get the advantage of one (G). I think he preferred having those "inside" notes as reference pitches, as opposed to having an open string as a tonic (such as you might get in the keys of E or A).

I'm sure the upright guys will have a more complete answer. I have dinked around on the instrument but I sure don't claim any real level of proficiency.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense!

 

[Engle]

My rhythm player, who is also an upright player, told me the exact same thing. He used to play a lot of rockabilly on his upright, and I gathered from what he said that when running what are effectively boogie-woogie type lines (1-3-5-6-7 sort of stuff), in Bb major you get the advantage of two open strings for pitch reference (D and G), and in Eb major you get the advantage of one (G). I think he preferred having those "inside" notes as reference pitches, as opposed to having an open string as a tonic (such as you might get in the keys of E or A).

I'm sure the upright guys will have a more complete answer. I have dinked around on the instrument but I sure don't claim any real level of proficiency.

That makes sense![/QUOTE]
Those reasons. Plus the opens and the roots a semitone from the nut make it easier on your hands.
Sorry to derail FWIW I get all kinds of sonic problems playing an amplified upright.

 

[HolmeBass]

Glad you figured it out! My guess was going to be either the kick mic or even worse, the floor tom. I hate it when the floor tom is tuned too low and feeds back and resonates on certain bass notes, because the sound guy always kills the bass, not the true culprit!

 

[BrewsterRooster]

Those reasons. Plus the opens and the roots a semitone from the nut make it easier on your hands. Sorry to derail FWIW I get all kinds of sonic problems playing an amplified upright.

That's the other thing my guy said. Easier on the hands. And having attempted (badly) to noodle on upright, I can see that making a whole lot of sense.

Not concerned about derails! Fire away. I posted this in the Humor section for that very reason...it's anything but serious business!

 

[bobyoung53]

Not the same thing but I used to play in a club in which the room was exactly the right size for it to act like a column of air tuned to the low C on my bass. Whenever I hit the C it was boom city and about 2-3 times as loud as any other note, very irritating. I finally had to turn way down as to not excite the room, I ended up playing there a lot too.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Any chance the resonance of the stage itself might have factored into this. The only issue I have with you explanation is why just E and A? Seems to me that if it were the two amps fighting, it would do it for any note. I could be wrong, but it is worth considering? I've seen stages be a really annoying factor in this regard.

 

[static0verdrive]

Seems to me that if it were the two amps fighting, it would do it for any note.

Interesting; I'm not sure - I thought it would only affect notes with wavelengths at factors or multiples of the distance between the amps..? i.e. Notes with wavelengths that don't fit or divide in that distance nicely would be out of phase with each other and therefore not interfere the same way? Half-guessing here...

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Interesting; I'm not sure - I thought it would only affect notes with wavelengths at factors or multiples of the distance between the amps..? i.e. Notes with wavelengths that don't fit or divide in that distance nicely would be out of phase with each other and therefore not interfere the same way? Half-guessing here...

Well, me, too.

 

[BAG]

Any chance the resonance of the stage itself might have factored into this. The only issue I have with you explanation is why just E and A? Seems to me that if it were the two amps fighting, it would do it for any note. I could be wrong, but it is worth considering? I've seen stages be a really annoying factor in this regard.

Each note has a different wavelength so only certain notes would have had the right length of note to cancel each other. Move either amp forward or backward somewhat and you might have had different notes affected. It is also entirely possible that some notes were combining with each other and appearing louder. In saying that, the state itself could have been a factor as well.

 

[BrewsterRooster]

Any chance the resonance of the stage itself might have factored into this. The only issue I have with you explanation is why just E and A? Seems to me that if it were the two amps fighting, it would do it for any note. I could be wrong, but it is worth considering? I've seen stages be a really annoying factor in this regard.

I'm with you on this - it seems counterintuitive. I assume it was a cancellation effect on those two open strings for two reasons: (1) we had both used the same tuner, with both instruments registering in-the-pocket tuning accuracy, and (2) if I fretted either an A or and E at the same time as the rhythm player hit either string open, the problem remitted slightly. It wasn't much better, but the difference was noticeable. Based on that, I assumed that intonation was an issue with one instrument or the other. Mine was scope-set recently, but who knows the last time the rhythm guitar was checked? My guess is 1970 or earlier - I'll ask him next weekend. (That was one of those ironic jokes with a likely patina of truth to it...)

I did hear some vestiges of the cancellation effect a few times on fretted G and C notes, too, but the interference was unpredictable and comparatively mild. This band does a rendition of I'd Rather Go Blind, in G major - and of course the bass and rhythm both live on G and A for that entire song. That was a brutal few minutes. I found myself dropping in some passing runs just to convince myself that I was still playing, and those color tones were larger than life. So in the end it really did seem like accurate tuning coupled with a poorly positioned amp/mic setup - and probably compounded by some sort of phasing issue from the stage monitor(s) - created a perfect storm that none of us could reason our way out of until it was over. Still glad it didn't hit the audience that way.

Each note has a different wavelength so only certain notes would have had the right length of note to cancel each other. Move either amp forward or backward somewhat and you might have had different notes affected. It is also entirely possible that some notes were combining with each other and appearing louder. In saying that, the state itself could have been a factor as well.

Why does Tennessee always get such a bad rap?

(I'm messing with you - trying to keep it in the Bass Humor vein...)