Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
A Message to Club Owners
- Thread starter fivestringgecko
- Start date
I think it helps point out an unpleasant truth, that many of us aren't as "good" as we think we are. The fact that a band wasn't missed says a lot about the quality of bands that had played there in the past, & what it says isn't very complimentary.
That's the other side of the issue. If entertainment isn't providing enough value, one could cut the costs of that entertainment down to the point where cost and value are essentially zero. On the other hand if the value is high enough (i.e. drawing larger crowds) a higher cost can be tolerated.
That's the ugly truth. It's not 100% the fault of the bad old club owners, that bands aren't getting paid enough. At least some of the blame needs to be laid on us, the musicians, for not providing enough value to be worth more.
Not speaking from experience in bands...
Two points seem to resonate loudly in this kind of thread:
1. Venue owners (or their managers) are one segment of low pay.
2. Hobbyists that don't care about 'pay' are a problem for working professionals.
3. Paid players that are willing to 'work' for peanuts are another part of the problem.
Two points seem to resonate loudly in this kind of thread:
1. Venue owners (or their managers) are one segment of low pay.
2. Hobbyists that don't care about 'pay' are a problem for working professionals.
3. Paid players that are willing to 'work' for peanuts are another part of the problem.
I would agree with some of this. There are still a few places to play around me but since I'm in a more rural area people don't drink like they used to. (=less money in till) You have to drive home and with lower DUI limits and more awareness in the public it's not worth it. If you live in more of a metro area where you can walk to bars it's different.
I'm 30 miles from Seattle and the music scene there while not what it used to be is still pretty good.
When I started playing live shows I didn't care about the money at all. I was just happy to play for an audience. I was a part of the problem. But now, after years of hard work and thousands of dollars spent on gear, I expect to get paid. When you become established in an area, you can set your price. If the club owners won't pay, you don't play. However, it is very difficult to get paid a fair amount when you are playing in a new area, or if you are just starting out. I played ****** underpaid gigs for years. Now, after 7 years of playing out every weekend with the same band, I am making decent money. However, we have to play for pennies if we are over 2 hours away from home.
Sometimes you have to remind yourself that you didn't become a musician for the money; you play music because you love it.
Sometimes you have to remind yourself that you didn't become a musician for the money; you play music because you love it.
From the experience I have with bars, I have friends who own them, My woman is a Bartender, I have worked at a few and drank at plenty,
I can definitely say that the bar scene is not what it used to be.
Everyones profits are down!
.The economy,
.The DUI enforcement,
.The drinking demographic getting older,
.Smoking laws,
.The fact that with social media today, people just don't got out and meet up like they used to.
.........................Add them all up and less people are patronizing bars than there were.
Folks may not realize it because when they ride their Harley to the local biker bar on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, the place is doing a great business BUT they never go in there on a Tuesday or Wednesday night and see just the same couple of old regulars sitting at the end of the bar nursing a draft beer and the bartender just waiting to close up and go home.
Operating costs continue to rise (products, Taxes, water, heat, etc.) for the establishment and the bills need to be paid.
Bands and other promotions are often considered frills when it comes down to operating expenses.
Here in Colorado, now that Pot is legal, bar owners that I have talked to are expecting to see even that have an effect on their sales.
Bars Are dying a slow death.
I can definitely say that the bar scene is not what it used to be.
Everyones profits are down!
.The economy,
.The DUI enforcement,
.The drinking demographic getting older,
.Smoking laws,
.The fact that with social media today, people just don't got out and meet up like they used to.
.........................Add them all up and less people are patronizing bars than there were.
Folks may not realize it because when they ride their Harley to the local biker bar on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, the place is doing a great business BUT they never go in there on a Tuesday or Wednesday night and see just the same couple of old regulars sitting at the end of the bar nursing a draft beer and the bartender just waiting to close up and go home.
Operating costs continue to rise (products, Taxes, water, heat, etc.) for the establishment and the bills need to be paid.
Bands and other promotions are often considered frills when it comes down to operating expenses.
Here in Colorado, now that Pot is legal, bar owners that I have talked to are expecting to see even that have an effect on their sales.
Bars Are dying a slow death.
I also forgot to point out that there is still a pretty good market for cover bands in some areas. I play mostly original music, but sometimes (when i need money) I take gigs playing covers. Playing at weddings, Jersey shore bars, and at parties hosted by rich people is still quite lucrative. It sucks, but playing requests pays. You might have to endure a night of playing "Sweet Home Alabama" and Sublime covers, but you can charge $1500.00+.
This sounds like they had bad music , learned their lesson and weeded out the bad bands , and started over with a list of the good ones.
Seems like every venue has to to this.
Playing for $1500, making music with other musicians, and even more important, making your listeners "feel good" does not suck in my book. If you have a skill that can make other human beings happy, then I call that a gift.
Coming back to an earlier point, treating gigs like a job may be a good way to look at it when you are looking to get paid.
I've often seen the quote around here "I play for free. I get paid the schlep the gear around.". It's funny but true. Getting the gig, packing up the equipment into the car, setting it up, soundcheck, tearing it all down; to me, that's the actual "job" part of the gig. Sure, you have to rehearse and learn the material too, but it's easier to think in terms of the less "fun" part of the gig.
I don't subscribe to the "if you love what you're doing, you should do it for free" mindset either. Yes, maybe people don't like their day jobs, but many people do. The bottom line is you are providing a service, so you should be paid.
That being said, it can be difficult, especially for small bars, to make it worth while financially.
jive1
Commercial User
In addition to all the mentioned factors, one of the things that club owners fall prey to is random reinforcement. In psychological terms, random reinforcement can be one of the strongest reinforcers for behavior. In bar terms what happens is that a bar has a band that comes in, works for free and then the bar has a banner night. They do it again a second night, but they don't make as much money. They continue doing it again, but because they won't pay for a quality band and/or promote live music, they still can't get the bar filled. Then one day, some random band comes in and the stars align and the place is packed, and the bar repeats the process until they give up and install a PhotoHunt machine.
One of the big problems that I see is that bands can be a last ditch attempt for a bar to draw and keep folks. They don't invest in the place, they don't offer any specials, the service is lousy, the food is bad, etc. and they still expect that a band will save the day. The problem is that if they hired a good band in the beginning, they have a better chance of making it. Comparing it to a house fire, once the house is burned to ashes, there's nothing calling the fire department will do to help. If the fire just started, and there's a house to work with, something can be saved.
Another issue is the cost of real estate makes it harder to have a music venue. Real estate has multiplied in price since the 80s, and to have a place with enough square footage nowadays for a band in a hot location is costly.
As far as solutions.......
Obviously, the bands and bars have to work together in this. The bars need to promote and build draw, and bands need a good enough product to get a following. Here's a few ideas:
- More clubs need to have 5 nights of music again. Use one day as an open mic for folks to network. Use another as "hobbyist" night for the folks who just want to get out and play. Have multiple bands play that night, and get their rocks off on a slow night. Then use the other 3 nights for your quality bands. Thursday should a be 1-2 top bands that appeal to a younger crowd. Friday and Saturday should be the best bands, regardless of draw. They should be the ones who keep a crowd. I believe by doing this, a place will get known as a good live music venue and make it a win-win for both the bands and bar.
- A club should get cozy with a particular scene, and cater to it. For example, a place could have a Ska night once a week, and have the local Ska bands from the area play. The place will get known as a place for Ska, and people from around will travel to check that out. The bands get their target audience for exposure, thus increasing their following and payout. The bar gets something they are known for, and possibly turn a slow night into one of their best.
- IME, IMO, when bars started becoming more concerned with draw more than quality of a band, it made the scene worse overall. Sure a band wants to bring folks in, but it should be on the merit of their material. IME, IMO, the marginal bands that draw well are usually one-and-done. Because their friends may not be folks who go out often, or would go to their bar otherwise. The bars need to attract people who will be regular customers, not people who watch their brother-in-law play for one set. The bars also need to make their place worth coming to again. If a band draws a potential customer, such as someone who lives nearby, but the service is lousy and the place is dirty, the band doesn't help as they should. IMO, IME, if your place is not that fun to hang out at, the band's draw will go somewhere else to see that band on another day.
One of the big problems that I see is that bands can be a last ditch attempt for a bar to draw and keep folks. They don't invest in the place, they don't offer any specials, the service is lousy, the food is bad, etc. and they still expect that a band will save the day. The problem is that if they hired a good band in the beginning, they have a better chance of making it. Comparing it to a house fire, once the house is burned to ashes, there's nothing calling the fire department will do to help. If the fire just started, and there's a house to work with, something can be saved.
Another issue is the cost of real estate makes it harder to have a music venue. Real estate has multiplied in price since the 80s, and to have a place with enough square footage nowadays for a band in a hot location is costly.
As far as solutions.......
Obviously, the bands and bars have to work together in this. The bars need to promote and build draw, and bands need a good enough product to get a following. Here's a few ideas:
- More clubs need to have 5 nights of music again. Use one day as an open mic for folks to network. Use another as "hobbyist" night for the folks who just want to get out and play. Have multiple bands play that night, and get their rocks off on a slow night. Then use the other 3 nights for your quality bands. Thursday should a be 1-2 top bands that appeal to a younger crowd. Friday and Saturday should be the best bands, regardless of draw. They should be the ones who keep a crowd. I believe by doing this, a place will get known as a good live music venue and make it a win-win for both the bands and bar.
- A club should get cozy with a particular scene, and cater to it. For example, a place could have a Ska night once a week, and have the local Ska bands from the area play. The place will get known as a place for Ska, and people from around will travel to check that out. The bands get their target audience for exposure, thus increasing their following and payout. The bar gets something they are known for, and possibly turn a slow night into one of their best.
- IME, IMO, when bars started becoming more concerned with draw more than quality of a band, it made the scene worse overall. Sure a band wants to bring folks in, but it should be on the merit of their material. IME, IMO, the marginal bands that draw well are usually one-and-done. Because their friends may not be folks who go out often, or would go to their bar otherwise. The bars need to attract people who will be regular customers, not people who watch their brother-in-law play for one set. The bars also need to make their place worth coming to again. If a band draws a potential customer, such as someone who lives nearby, but the service is lousy and the place is dirty, the band doesn't help as they should. IMO, IME, if your place is not that fun to hang out at, the band's draw will go somewhere else to see that band on another day.
I agree with Jive1.
The bars that I frequent are known to have regular bands and they pay them, most without a cover charge. And the ones that do have a cover charge are more specialized show bands and tribute/themed bands, which are worth the cover. The quality of these bands are all consistently high at these venues and that is part of the reason they're still around.
Bars need to put an effort/strategy into having bands and attracting a crowd rather than just trying to have a band make up for slow nights or bad business in general.
The bars that I frequent are known to have regular bands and they pay them, most without a cover charge. And the ones that do have a cover charge are more specialized show bands and tribute/themed bands, which are worth the cover. The quality of these bands are all consistently high at these venues and that is part of the reason they're still around.
Bars need to put an effort/strategy into having bands and attracting a crowd rather than just trying to have a band make up for slow nights or bad business in general.
jive1
Commercial User
jive1
Commercial User
If bands stopped playing at bars, they wouldn't necessarily go out of business. But, if the bar didn't offer some type of entertainment, atmosphere, food, etc., outside of serving alcohol they would. If they didn't, they would just be an overpriced, liquor store.
As far as bars having an upper hand.....
With bands, they certainly do as there are more bands than venues. But in terms of overall, they are losing it to people's homes. The things that bars once had to bring people in are now available at home. Cable/Satellite TV is cheap enough for people to have it at home, and lots of people have big screens. The video games available at home are far superior and cheaper to what's in the bar. Houses are bigger, thus allowing folks to have pool tables, pinball machines, dartboards, etc. People have sound systems and music libraries better than most bars with jukeboxes. People are socializing online more and more. The issue for the bars is that they need to have something more than what people can get at home to deal with not being able to smoke, risk a DUI, spend money on gas, etc. Live music is just one thing that may help.
Some good wisdom in the last few posts, I also agree with Jive and Smallmouth.
What do you guys think about bars that DON'T do live music but would greatly benefit from? I was at my weekly happy hour spot with my crew last night to ring in the new year and had a realization that I really wanted to play a gig there. I mean, I have for a while... We've been there every Wednesday for the last 6 years, so we know the staff and owners... But last night I found myself thinking about this discussion and how I really wanted to play there. They have a nice patio for outdoor stuff in the summer, and a great upstairs which would also be good. My 11-piece horn band probably wouldn't be right for it of course, but I'd love to play there in a little jazz trio or something.
What do you guys think? How easy/realistic would it be for a long-established venue to add (the right) live music to their repertoire? Good idea, bad idea?
5sg.
What do you guys think about bars that DON'T do live music but would greatly benefit from? I was at my weekly happy hour spot with my crew last night to ring in the new year and had a realization that I really wanted to play a gig there. I mean, I have for a while... We've been there every Wednesday for the last 6 years, so we know the staff and owners... But last night I found myself thinking about this discussion and how I really wanted to play there. They have a nice patio for outdoor stuff in the summer, and a great upstairs which would also be good. My 11-piece horn band probably wouldn't be right for it of course, but I'd love to play there in a little jazz trio or something.
What do you guys think? How easy/realistic would it be for a long-established venue to add (the right) live music to their repertoire? Good idea, bad idea?
5sg.
A band can play at any venue that has enough room really. I guess it's just important to do it in a smart way. For example, people probably don't want to go to an established bar they normally go to only to be knocked up for a cover charge at the door that they weren't expecting for a band they didn't want to go out to see.
On the other hand, if the bar is willing to pay the band and try something new and spice things up a little, it may be something worth considering.
On the other hand, if the bar is willing to pay the band and try something new and spice things up a little, it may be something worth considering.
