A Victor Wooten Lesson

[SteveCS]

or maybe it just leaves it up to the quality of musician to figure it out.

Exactly this. People already rag on standard notation that it is too prescriptive. Imagine the rag levels if it had all of the symbology needed to fully expound all of this detail. SN is fine as is - the nuance of interpretation and delivery, as with all languages, is in the gift (musicianship and artistry) of the performer.

 

[Dlew919]

Only that G# major is the enharmonic equivalent of Ab major, which is the common way to name those notes.

A# is another one - A # B# C# D E# Fx* g# A.

B# and E#. That can something right off to the sky.

yeah it's an interesting one. baggage aside Kanye makes some incredible productions

Golddigger is incredibly clever. You shouldn’t be able to dance to it.

 

[Pacman]

A# is another one - A # B# C# D E# Fx* g# A.

B# and E#. That can something right off to the sky.

Golddigger is incredibly clever. You shouldn’t be able to dance to it.

Actually, it would be A # B# Cx D E# Fx gx A

 

[Dlew919]

Actually, it would be A # B# Cx D E# Fx gx A

Ah crud. You’re right. It can still something off to the sky especially with a relative minor of Fx.

 

[mambo4]

the nuance of interpretation and delivery, as with all languages, is in the gift (musicianship and artistry) of the performer.

I think the stereotype of the "classical musician who can't swing" is so ingrained it's accepted as truth by many. It's an assumption that trained classical musicians are metronomic robots executing precise instructions to a grid. But compare any two well regarded recordings of any important classical piece and they will sound quite different. A high level classical player will read notation fluently and interpret while reading, responding to the conductor and listening the music which is pretty impressive skill in my eyes. The rhythmic variations in these classical interpretations is easily as broad as differences in interpretations of swing, shuffle or funk.

Musicians who can read but not groove do exist
But it's not the reading which is to blame, in my experience.

 

[SteveCS]

Musicians who can read but not groove do exist
But it's not the reading which is to blame, in my experience.

Indeed. Anyone can read Shakespeare and most can read it aloud. But few can truly bring the characters to life. As with music and musicians. Which is why we study the material and practice the small stuff well beyond the written notes, strange Italian words and cryptic symbols. As it happens, if I sawa written directive 'per J.Dilla' I would know enough of what to expect and what was expected without needing additional complications written into the rhythmic subdivisions.

 

[mambo4]

As it happens, if I sawa written directive 'per J.Dilla' I would know enough of what to expect and what was expected without needing additional complications written into the rhythmic subdivisions.

Notation with that much rhythmic precision would be excruciating to read!
Reminds me of the results of automated MIDI to notation programs, when passed something unquantized.

 

[SteveCS]

Notation with that much rhythmic precision would be excruciating to read!
Reminds me of the results of automated MIDI to notation programs, when passed something unquantized.

Indeed, but no less an exercise in interpretation than the words Rubato or Rit. They're all easy when everyone in the room agrees on what they mean...

 

[wompwomp]

Notation with that much rhythmic precision would be excruciating to read!
Reminds me of the results of automated MIDI to notation programs, when passed something unquantized.

I feel like you are making my point here. j dilla is basically using polyrhythm on those beats. the program seems to handle the notation just fine!

western classical theory and notation can handle polyphony with no problem. but it isn't equipped to deal with polyrhythm of any complexity

 

[12BitSlab]

Re: G# major…

If C instruments are playing in the key of F#, then a Bb trumpet is playing in the key of G#. The theoretical keys are real for non-C instruments.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Re: G# major…

If C instruments are playing in the key of F#, then a Bb trumpet is playing in the key of G#. The theoretical keys are real for non-C instruments.

Every single composer and arranger I know, myself included, would notate that trumpet part in Ab. Most would likely notate the original in Gb as well, but that’s another story.

 

[KenSmithFan]

I think the stereotype of the "classical musician who can't swing" is so ingrained it's accepted as truth by many. It's an assumption that trained classical musicians are metronomic robots executing precise instructions to a grid. But compare any two well regarded recordings of any important classical piece and they will sound quite different. A high level classical player will read notation fluently and interpret while reading, responding to the conductor and listening the music which is pretty impressive skill in my eyes. The rhythmic variations in these classical interpretations is easily as broad as differences in interpretations of swing, shuffle or funk.

Musicians who can read but not groove do exist
But it's not the reading which is to blame, in my experience.

The trained musician who can’t groove is primarily a myth created by musicians who aren’t trained and feel the need to denigrate anyone with an education. Not to say it NEVER happens, but I don’t see it much.

What I have seen a lot of in the 55 years I’ve been playing is lazy, self “taught” musicians who play like stiff wooden Indians because they are concentrating on how to play their instruments and figuring out what note to play and where it is on their instrument. To really groove, you need to relax and concentrate on making music, not worrying about the mechanics of playing your instrument and struggling with what notes to play.

 

[wompwomp]

The trained musician who can’t groove is primarily a myth created by musicians who aren’t trained and feel the need to denigrate anyone with an education. Not to say it NEVER happens, but I don’t see it much.

What I have seen a lot of in the 55 years I’ve been playing is lazy, self “taught” musicians who play like stiff wooden Indians because they are concentrating on how to play their instruments and figuring out what note to play and where it is on their instrument. To really groove, you need to relax and concentrate on making music, not worrying about the mechanics of playing your instrument and struggling with what notes to play.

It happens all the time! no shortage of recordings of professionally trained musicians playing lame time.

 

[KenSmithFan]

It happens all the time! no shortage of recordings of professionally trained musicians playing lame time.

Sure, if you cherry pick examples, you can prove anything. It's been my experience that it's about 20 to 1 or more untrained musicians who can't keep time. I'm talking about the real world that most of us live and perform in and that isn't in the recording studio, unless you want to try to make that argument too.

 

[wompwomp]

Sure, if you cherry pick examples, you can prove anything. It's been my experience that it's about 20 to 1 or more untrained musicians who can't keep time. I'm talking about the real world that most of us live and perform in and that isn't in the recording studio, unless you want to try to make that argument too.

i'm afraid you'll have to cherry pick me an example of a classical western musician grooving off sheet music otherwise I don't believe you.

meanwhile I can provide you plenty of crappy shuffles

 

[the_Ryan]

i'm afraid you'll have to cherry pick me an example of a classical western musician grooving off sheet music otherwise I don't believe you.

meanwhile I can provide you plenty of crappy shuffles

Speaking as a classical musician primarily, classical musicians not being able to groove is not related at all to the reliance on sheet music: groove is just not as high of a priority for most classical musicians (it should be much higher priority, especially for baroque and classical period music, but that’s another debate) and things like tone, intonation, and phrasing are generally the things people focus on most in the practice room. Also, if you aren’t familiar with swing music, can one actually swing regardless?

Being able to read sheet music is not an indication of one’s ability to groove: big bands are extremely reliant on sheet music and I doubt anyone would say that Basie’s or Ellington’s bands couldn’t swing. Yes, swing and groove and other musical aspects that came from an aural musical tradition are somewhat nebulous and are ultimately not best communicated through western musical notation, but that doesn’t mean people who read sheet music can’t play in those styles.

Sheet music, as a medium, is just a vehicle to communicate a composer’s/arranger’s musical intentions, and it is imperfect and weird in some places due to it being hacked together through centuries and centuries of minor changes as different composers started doing things that the then-contemporary system couldn’t handle, but right now it’s still the most effective vehicle through which we can communicate musical ideas in many circumstances.

I’ll leave this video here, which goes a little off the rails at times, but it provides a quick history of western music notation and why many proposed “fixes” to it actually have more drawbacks than the current system.

 

[wompwomp]

Speaking as a classical musician primarily, classical musicians not being able to groove is not related at all to the reliance on sheet music: groove is just not as high of a priority for most classical musicians (it should be much higher priority, especially for baroque and classical period music, but that’s another debate) and things like tone, intonation, and phrasing are generally the things people focus on most in the practice room. Also, if you aren’t familiar with swing music, can one actually swing regardless?

Being able to read sheet music is not an indication of one’s ability to groove: big bands are extremely reliant on sheet music and I doubt anyone would say that Basie’s or Ellington’s bands couldn’t swing. Yes, swing and groove and other musical aspects that came from an aural musical tradition are somewhat nebulous and are ultimately not best communicated through western musical notation, but that doesn’t mean people who read sheet music can’t play in those styles.

Sheet music, as a medium, is just a vehicle to communicate a composer’s/arranger’s musical intentions, and it is imperfect and weird in some places due to it being hacked together through centuries and centuries of minor changes as different composers started doing things that the then-contemporary system couldn’t handle, but right now it’s still the most effective vehicle through which we can communicate musical ideas in many circumstances.

I’ll leave this video here, which goes a little off the rails at times, but it provides a quick history of western music notation and why many proposed “fixes” to it actually have more drawbacks than the current system.

yes chess notation is another great example of developmental skew. btw black played a flat-out terrible game it's usually a bad idea to develop the queen too early.

of course chess is not analogous to music. music is not a contest nor is it prearranged (which as we all know is why Bobby Fisher invented chess960). in chess the notation is another way of visualizing the board but it's also a flawed view which is why there are competing standards. hopefully you play and have some idea of what i'm talking about...

to restate my point: western notation does not support rhythmic development. so far ^ this video agrees with me. I'm gonna stop it and you can tell me the timestamp where they prove that western notation supports rhythmic development thx

 

[wompwomp]

and btw when Ellington wrote swing eighths he didn't write them as subdvisions of a triplet or with a dot. he indicated swing time at the top of the sheet and wrote them as eighth notes.

swing isn't subdivision. it's something else . it's not on the page.

 

[wompwomp]

here's a shuffle we've all heard. played by professionals.

does it groove? what say you? i'll give my two cents in a moment i'd like to let folks chime in

 

[wompwomp]

here it is live