Double Bass ABGs with upright-like sound

[Inconnu]

Compared to what he already has, the Godin is total junk.
At least the one I had was. Although admittedly, the back is made of a very high quality plastic.

Hmm... My main fretted electric is a Godin... worth less then half the price of my other fretted but as good...

I never owned a Godin A4... but I played alot on the old model which was more or less p-bass shaped made out of wood... that one was great...

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I HATE THIS THREAD.

PLEASE, Some Mod ERASE this thing. It does NOT belong here. Plastic is NOT food. BGs are NOT Double Basses. Unless your guts are rattled when you play, it's not a Double Bass. This discussion was on the BG side awhile ago. It died out. PLEASE STAY DEAD. It hurts my eyes to see BG talk in this Forum.

 

[Mike Crumpton]

I HATE THIS THREAD.

PLEASE, Some Mod ERASE this thing. It does NOT belong here. Plastic is NOT food. BGs are NOT Double Basses. Unless your guts are rattled when you play, it's not a Double Bass. This discussion was on the BG side awhile ago. It died out. PLEASE STAY DEAD. It hurts my eyes to see BG talk in this Forum.

And there speaks a maker of some of the best bgs around! I'll second this Ken. Besides, if anyone did make a bg that could sound like a db, I'd feel like the craft weavers did when the machines came in - a luddite, and like a true luddite having his raison d'etre being cut from under him I'd be there smashing the fine things to smithereens but there's progress for you.

I've never seen the point of an accoustic db for a variety of reasons but these reasons beloong in another place.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

For what it's worth, Ken Smith Basses (KSB, my company founded by me in 1978) made the Neck and Fingerboards for Martin Guitar's ABG for 10 years until they had it CNC'd. Yes, the Neck and FB taper IS a Ken Smith, our/my design. When you bought a neck or FB for an Acoustic Guitar project from Martins' retail outlet 'Guitar Makers Connection' (the old 1833 shop), you were buying a Product made in my shop on my machines and by my crew. We were their Sub-contractor for that product for a good solid decade.

I also Played both BG and DB Professionally for 20 years in NYC. I have played some of the best Italian, English, French and American Yankee Basses in the world as well as owned and currently own some of them. So.. If "I" say something about this subject at hand, you can bet your 'first born' I know what the heck I'm talking about.

 

[Mudfuzz]

I actually have one of those necks laying around my shop some where, I got it cheap of ebay a few years ago. I thought it would be a fun project at the time but the more I researched and the more ABGs I played made me give up on it for now. I think that if I do ever get back to making a ABGish thingamabob it'll be a 4 string contrabass balalaika.

 

[Marcus Willett]

I would never dream of doubting someone with Ken's credentials...really.

And what I'm about to say isn't that at all, just an observation.

The bass I was referring to is rather unique. The fellow who made it owns the patent on the design; it really is different. I've tried a lot of "acoustic/electric" type basses and never liked any of them until I tried Dave's.

NCI at all, just happy with the bass he built.

 

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

I think there's an easy solution to this:
You want a DB sound? Play a DB
You want a BG sound? Play a BG

I played BG for about 5 years before I got my DB. I wanted a "DB-like sound" so I went and bought a Strunal. Not the best bass out there by far and it's not cheap either, but it sure sounds like a DB.

The minute I want my DB to sound like a drum set, I'll get me a REAL drum set.

I'm sure there must be good ABG with a very nice sound. But they are what they are. Learn to like them (even love them) for what they are.

Take Mr. Smith for example, his company builds great BG's and I guess it's because he likes BG and wants to give people a BG that sounds good. But I've surfed through his website and I have yet to find a BG that he claims sounds like a DB. I think this is simply because such things is non existent and he wouldn't trick people into buying something.

Bottom line:

Go get a REAL BASS. Yes, It's expensive. Yes, It's hard to learn. But that's the only way to get that sound. THE SOUND.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

All true, which begs the question, Jeff (going back to your original post); why not just get a double bass?

 

[Marcus Willett]

I think there's an easy solution to this:
You want a DB sound? Play a DB
You want a BG sound? Play a BG

I agree with this completely. If I am recording and I want the "fretless sound", I'll use a fretless bass...duh.

However there are many situations one might face as a player. I might want the "fretless sound" for a single tune, or even just a section...like an intro. Often times it's impractical to switch instruments quickly. An upright bass would be cool to have at my theatre gig, but even if I had time to switch (assuming I even played the thing well enough), there isn't enough physical room to put one on stage.

This is one of those situations where getting "pretty close" is the best alternative to nothing at all. In my case, I often use the V-Bass.

So, while I agree with posters here (if you want the sound of a URB, then play a URB), I can also see how there is a legitimate need for something that gets me close to that kinda vibe at times.

They're just tools in the end, and I'll use whatever tool that will work the best in any given situation.

 

[lucas vigor]

For years before I made the leap, I used my p-bass with flatwounds and a felt muffler in the bridge. Amp with treble and mid to zero, and bass EQ to ten....

It worked for a while, until I bought my first DB. Now, listening to old recordings I made makes me want to shoot myself...

There is no substitute for the real thing!!!!

Once other thing. I had considered the ABG route from time to time, because of the whole campfire portability thing, BUT, have found that I can still be fairly mobile with my uprights. Most gigs I do, I end up working the drunk tables with my g*&^tarist, going from one to the next no problem. And the customers seem to really love the upright!!!

 

[ToneRanger]

You want a DB sound? Play a DB
You want a BG sound? Play a BG

Can't argue with that, but if we can get past the notion of 'making something sound like something else', there are good instruments around with useful sounds. My EUB doesn't sound identical to a URB, but it works well in the context of the music I play. And I don't pretend I'm playing URB.

I've played a lot of awful ABG's and two good ones:
The Takamine B10 is quite nice, has an end-pin and arched fingerboard, quality woods with a lovely antique finish. This is the ABG that most resembles a URB. Not much acoustic output but good amplified sounds.
By far the best ABG I've played was a Maton Bindara. It has a huge flat-top body with end pin. This is the only ABG I've played that had serious unplugged volume and could keep up with other acoustic instruments. It's more 'guitar-like' with great natural sounds. The one I played didn't have a pickup.

 

[bassinstincts]

Sorry, it has been a while. But in response to the question of Ren vs. Rob, the Renaissance has more real "tone" which is both good and bad. Good because it is a sound (both woody and metallic at the same time) that is completely unique to the instrument. Bad because it is a bit of a one-trick pony.
That said, it is a fine sounding, well made instrument, albeit one that takes some getting used to because of the low tension of the TI strings.

The Rob Allen (in my case Deep 5, high C) is a work of art and a very good sounding bass. Puts out gobs of low end...so much in fact that you really have to EQ it back. The sound is good and very smooth, but somewhat more anonymous because of the tape wrapped strings.

I have used the Turner for jazz gigs and received compliments for sound...but to me it sounds a bit thin in that context...and I find it a bitch to dig in with the low tension strings. I have used it on a few non-Chicago blues gigs with great results.

The Rob Allen has worked out best on non-DB jazz gigs. Like the Turner it has great mwah. But there is a certain dryness to the sound. While I love the Deep 5, I guess I wish I had never traded in my Rob Allen four string which had slightly better all-around sonic virtues.

On the bigger picture, I have decided to abandon the quest for something more upright-like. Anything else has trade-offs of its own. I am well off with what I have until and if something better comes along.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's funny, I saw Dudley Phillips play at my local Jazz club recently - he's a great English "doubler" he usually play DB and a Ken Smith 6 string - but I noticed this time that he had bought an ABG with him.

So mostly he played DB and sounded great - but the band did a funkier tune and he picked up the ABG and proceeded to sound very much as he used to on the Ken Smith BG (as far as I remember)

 

[bob atherton]

I fear this posting will ruffle a few feathers. There seems to be a high degree of snobbery here about the double bass. At the end of the day it is a fine bass instrument, but there are other bass instruments out there.

I see nothing wrong with an electric player wishing to get as close a sound to a DB as possible on a couple of numbers. I also see nothing wrong with a DB or EUB player trying to get as close as he can to an eclectic bass on a couple of numbers.

The reason that I have an EUB is that I wanted a DBish type of tone, but didn’t want to go the whole hog and get a DB. The EUB, for me, is the better instrument for the style of music that we play in my band.

If I was in a Ray Brown tribute band then I would look and sound a bit lame without a DB!

We are all musicians and we all play bass. We will never all agree, but it would be a sad day if one was put down or ridiculed over a choice of instrument.

 

[arizonabass]

The Rob Allen (in my case Deep 5, high C) is a work of art and a very good sounding bass. Puts out gobs of low end...so much in fact that you really have to EQ it back. The sound is good and very smooth, but somewhat more anonymous because of the tape wrapped strings.

The Rob Allen has worked out best on non-DB jazz gigs. Like the Turner it has great mwah. But there is a certain dryness to the sound. While I love the Deep 5, I guess I wish I had never traded in my Rob Allen four string which had slightly better all-around sonic virtues.

I'm preparing to order an MB-2 4-string fretless. Please explain what you mean by an "anonymous" sound and the "dryness" of the sound, and what are your thoughts/feelings about the strings? I have asked Rob about fitting it with TI Jazz Flats, but he said I would love the La Bellas and they provide the bass' "signature sound." I need some assistance in making this choice of strings!

 

[Mudfuzz]

I fear this posting will ruffle a few feathers. There seems to be a high degree of snobbery here about the double bass. At the end of the day it is a fine bass instrument, but there are other bass instruments out there.

I see nothing wrong with an electric player wishing to get as close a sound to a DB as possible on a couple of numbers. I also see nothing wrong with a DB or EUB player trying to get as close as he can to an eclectic bass on a couple of numbers.

The reason that I have an EUB is that I wanted a DBish type of tone, but didn’t want to go the whole hog and get a DB. The EUB, for me, is the better instrument for the style of music that we play in my band.

If I was in a Ray Brown tribute band then I would look and sound a bit lame without a DB!

We are all musicians and we all play bass. We will never all agree, but it would be a sad day if one was put down or ridiculed over a choice of instrument.

Good post. I agree for the most part. My problem with ABGs is only a volume issue, all the the ABGs I've played, which is pretty much all but the earthwood [which is a soar subject because I had the chance to get all to parts for one and passed; but at the time I was 17 and hadn't started building yet] and not one comes close to getting the job of just pumping out lows done, the mids cut through on some of them very well and I think if treated as a bass VI or tenor bass they could work. But to be used as a bass it is a electric instrument, and there for it sould be dealt with as such, if you want that sound then get it and for that reason, i.e. you like it for what it is not as a substitute for something else. I think all basses have their place, in the hands of some one that loves to play it and loves the sound they get from it.

 

[Dave Irwin]

disclaimer - I'm every bit as much (or as little) and electric player as I am an upright player....

I'm not so sure it's snobbery as much as it is a difference in tolerance for imitation of a db sound. If you are not an avid listener of doublebass or maybe even a player, you will likely hear some ABG properties as being more upright like than the more avid listener. People tell me all the time that my Kramer Ferrington and my Ashbory sound like an upright. These folks are not avid listeners. So to a db player, it's very easy to regard the concept of an ABG imitating the db sound as amateurish or ignorant. Pretty strong words huh? But in a literal sense they are acurate.

At any rate, I would evaluate the comments this way.... The ABG that these guys criticize and belittle the least can be considered recommended to a bg player with a greater tolerance for "quasi" db tone.

I fear this posting will ruffle a few feathers. There seems to be a high degree of snobbery here about the double bass. At the end of the day it is a fine bass instrument, but there are other bass instruments out there.

I see nothing wrong with an electric player wishing to get as close a sound to a DB as possible on a couple of numbers. I also see nothing wrong with a DB or EUB player trying to get as close as he can to an eclectic bass on a couple of numbers.

The reason that I have an EUB is that I wanted a DBish type of tone, but didn’t want to go the whole hog and get a DB. The EUB, for me, is the better instrument for the style of music that we play in my band.

If I was in a Ray Brown tribute band then I would look and sound a bit lame without a DB!

We are all musicians and we all play bass. We will never all agree, but it would be a sad day if one was put down or ridiculed over a choice of instrument.

 

[Phil Smith]

I don't think it's snobbery at all. An ABG or BG just doesn't sound like a DB, end of story. If you want a DB sound you'll need to get a DB. If you want a amplified DB sound there are some EUB's that can get a closer sound because they're using double bass strings and finger board and have the same string length.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Ya kenna beat the laws of physicks, Cap'n, and ya kenna beat the attitude out of some folks... Depending on the day it's amusing, boring or maddening... It's certainly a suitable topic for the DB side of the board as the guy is asking how to make something sound like a DB. Even if the answer is "forget about it", what's the problem?

My position, based on experience? ABGs blow big chunks for the most part. For a long time I avoided this conclusion, but alas, there it is. My thang has always been how unloud and unfocused their sound is, and if you plug them in, they sound like EBs with feedback problems. Acoustically they get lost in a lively jam with fiddles and banjos and other loud things. As for making them sound like a DB well, that's why I play DB, not ABG.

To add a new wrinkle to the thread: in looking at the whole ABG thing some years ago, I found a guy on the web (and have since lost the reference -- hard drive crash; he was in Arizona or New Mexico or someplace southwest) who was making long-scale archtop ABGs. Or at least he had made one of them. He was using Lee Sklar to help sell them. I haven't heard the instrument (which looked gorgeous), but it seems to me that with a 36 or 37 inch string length, flat wound strings and good wood nicely carved you might be getting somewhere close to DB-ish sound approximation. Frets are unthinkable, of course.

I think, though, the farther you go down the long-scale archtop road, the more you wind up with a design that approaches the bass violin in terms of sound and cost to execute.

So why bother with the ABG quest? Because they would be a lot more convenient to carry around than a DB ever would be. That's why the interest in the possibility will never go away...

 

[Mudfuzz]

To add a new wrinkle to the thread: in looking at the whole ABG thing some years ago, I found a guy on the web (and have since lost the reference -- hard drive crash; he was in Arizona or New Mexico or someplace southwest) who was making long-scale archtop ABGs. Or at least he had made one of them. He was using Lee Sklar to help sell them. I haven't heard the instrument (which looked gorgeous), but it seems to me that with a 36 or 37 inch string length, flat wound strings and good wood nicely carved you might be getting somewhere close to DB-ish sound approximation. Frets are unthinkable, of course.

And here it is Invalid Link Removed, I was going through some of my old links and found it.