Absolutely buried at outdoor gig

[tvbop]

The real problem here is the name of our instrument. Yes compared to most úpper register instruments it is..."bassy" in tone but it doesnt produce "bass" as such..its actually a "low mid instrument", producing low mid tones.
"Hey, how'd you like my new Fender Precision Low Mid" ? Haha...kinda sounds a bit weird huh, but its the truth.

Anyway getting back to those stupid subs and the "engineers"? that come with them. This is how bad its getting. I was at a pretty large outdoor festival last summer lets say half the Glastonbury main arena size with aerial arrays half way across the area and all fenced in with super high steel perimeter so you could not escape . I tell you, you could not escape from the gut pounding BD ..it was really bad....biggest waste of money ever...we left after an hr.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Just to ask.......when routing to sub was the kick and bass also being sent to the main speakers and not just into the subs?

There have been other post on similar topics where people were only sending the bass, kick, ect to the sub woofer and not into the main top boxes.
200hz is kind of a high cross over for an 18 sub

Seems pointless to send bass to FOH only to have it fed to subs and not "tops" unless the objective is to bury everything on stage and in the audience with indistinguishable low-frequency mush.

 

[Jazzdogg]

The real problem here is the name of our instrument. Yes compared to most úpper register instruments it is..."bassy" in tone but it doesnt produce "bass" as such..its actually a "low mid instrument", producing low mid tones.
"Hey, how'd you like my new Fender Precision Low Mid" ? Haha...kinda sounds a bit weird huh, but its the truth.

Anyway getting back to those stupid subs and the "engineers"? that come with them. This is how bad its getting. I was at a pretty large outdoor festival last summer lets say half the Glastonbury main arena size with aerial arrays half way across the area and all fenced in with super high steel perimeter so you could not escape . I tell you, you could not escape from the gut pounding BD ..it was really bad....biggest waste of money ever...we left after an hr.

You've just described every concert I've attended in the past several years - except classical and jazz - consistently rubbish.

 

[micguy]

The solution to hearing yourself in most cases is figuring out how to point your speakers at your ears, not the back of your knees. It really helps if EVERYONE on stage does this - if the guitarists' speakers point at their ears, they will naturally turn down, which helps reduce overall volume. You point your speakers at your ears because you hear the pitch you are playing from the overtones in the mids, not the fundamentals, and you need to be in the beam of your speakers (but not the guitarist's') to hear that.

I tried standing close and away by about 15'. Man, it was tough and muscle memory was clutch over the next two hours.

If noone heard you, then noone heard your mistakes. Congratulations - you played a gig with no audible flubs!

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Seems pointless to send bass to FOH only to have it fed to subs and not "tops" unless the objective is to bury everything on stage and in the audience with indistinguishable low-frequency mush.

And that is what it would sound like!
My post was asking if that's what they were doing not suggesting that they do it that way.

As for subs and a PA mix.....yes in general, not all but many people are mixing or trying to mix all music genres to sound like pop / dance music.
Or......these days with mega subwoofers it's easy to get chest caving low end but it still takes a little talent to actually create a mix, many take the easy path.

 

[burgerdj]

Just to clarify - bass was in the mains, too. Bass and kick were the only channels feeding the sub, crossed over ~200hz I believe.

 

[agedhorse]

Just to clarify - bass was in the mains, too. Bass and kick were the only channels feeding the sub, crossed over ~200hz I believe.

200Hz is awfully high for everything else if aux feeding the subs.

 

[paskisti]

200Hz is awfully high for everything else if aux feeding the subs.

I think so too. Would it be just the simplest solution (in this case) to route main stereo signal to subs, then high passed signal from subs to highs. No aux subs or other fancy here. Subs' HPF output takes care that sound is integrated seamlessly between subs and highs, especially when you have system from the same brand and series. I'm not pro with PA but this makes sense when wanted straight forward solution.

 

[agedhorse]

It would make sense if the crossover and power amp was in the subs.

 

[burgerdj]

It would make sense if the crossover and power amp was in the subs.

I'm confident I'm working with incomplete information - just going on bits of conversation during setup and sound check last weekend Our PA is all powered speakers (two mains, four monitors and the sub). Everything is controlled via virtual interface on an iPad.

we do it all again in early October - I'll get a full rundown.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Sorry if I missed it through all the post but what make and model are your speakers.
There are many different approaches on how you configure mains and subs depending on the make and model of your powered speakers.
Some top boxes rely on the sub woofer to provide the crossover functions and, others each box provides it's own crossover, some rely on an external crossover.
Depending on that it determines what speaker gets the input signal first and then passes through to the next speaker.
Many have various switches and or menu options for the needed set up, others have just have a level control and input and output jacks.

The suggestion on the configuring the system as a full range system is something to consider.

 

[Big String]

Just to clarify - bass was in the mains, too. Bass and kick were the only channels feeding the sub, crossed over ~200hz I believe.

Honestly I don't remember if Aux was fed… but I know we crossed at 200hz and anything above that went to the tops (Mackie 15 powered) below went to the Carvin 18 powered sub which we often placed in the middle of the stage on the floor. Some odd room setups. We used a Rane active xover. Also a Mackie 1604 VLZ mixer. Always sounded great!

 

[buldog5151bass]

I've had a few ugly gigs like that. One help for such situations - put one of your feet against/on a kick drum support. At least you can feel the beat, and know where the "one" is. Doing this has saved me.

 

[Marko 1]

I've considered all kindsa different configurations...

Best for me has been the simplest- signal to Subs crossed over 90-100hz to the Mains (my speakers aren't those with little computer screens on them, so I don't have a whole slew of other options ).

I High Pass all channels on the high side, and everything sounds good, and clean.

 

[agedhorse]

Honestly I don't remember if Aux was fed… but I know we crossed at 200hz and anything above that went to the tops (Mackie 15 powered) below went to the Carvin 18 powered sub which we often placed in the middle of the stage on the floor. Some odd room setups. We used a Rane active xover. Also a Mackie 1604 VLZ mixer. Always sounded great!

This sounds like a mess just waiting to happen.

You can't send just the bass and kick to the subs without being "aux sent".

I think the root cause of your problems will be traced back to a poorly set up PA system.

 

[Omega Monkey]

I find running aux-fed subs prevents things like microphones from being routed to subs in the first place, and makes it much easier to balance tops with subs for those who prefer high fidelity to low frequency mush.

In the age of digital mixers where every single channel has a 4 band fully parametric EQ and a sweepable HPF, there's basically no point to aux subs except undue aggravation and inviting extra work and mistakes.

If the system is properly tuned and crossed over, and channels are high passed appropriately, you just send everything as one and it comes out where it's supposed to. When you listen to Gaucho on CD, there's no little audio engineer behind your stereo saying "oi, only send the kick and bass to woofer, eh?" It's just mixed in a way that it comes out of the speaker that it's supposed to.

Some people like to do it, which makes sense in bigger concerts, so they can bump one fader and increase the overall intensity of the low end for specific passages, without having to move a number of faders. But for a typical bar band with a more or less unattended mixer, there's no point. Just tune and crossover the system properly, and then set an overall appropriate "best all around" level for each instrument, whether low end or not, with the aforementioned high pass filtering. I tend to find, especially in smaller spaces and with louder bands, that the level I want the bass fader to be, I literally can't get the sub send fader high enough to get that low end bump into the sub, unless I start to drastically EQ the bass, which I try to avoid. It's just one more level of gain staging to potentially screw up.

So the more a band has NO CLUE what they are really doing with sound and/or just don't have someone dedicated to keeping an eye on everything, they more they should avail themselves of technological assists. Get a DriveRack and an RTA mic, and use them. Run the wizards at the beginning of the show, let it assess the response of the speakers in the room, automatically EQ, etc... and it will even automatically deal with feedback. Then you just EQ your channels as necessary, high pass judiciously, and Bob's your uncle.

It would make sense if the crossover and power amp was in the subs.

I assume he's referring to powered subs with a high passed through out and powered mains. As someone else mentioned though, different manufacturers tend to do the division of labor differently. Sometimes the subs will high pass and send on, sometimes they mains will low pass and send on, sometimes both, sometimes neither. That's why it's good to have a DriveRack and then not worry about the DSP on your speakers at all (unless you gain something else from it, like some will have a short delay setting, etc...).

 

[agedhorse]

In the age of digital mixers where every single channel has a 4 band fully parametric EQ and a sweepable HPF, there's basically no point to aux subs except undue aggravation and inviting extra work and mistakes.

If the system is properly tuned and crossed over, and channels are high passed appropriately, you just send everything as one and it comes out where it's supposed to. When you listen to Gaucho on CD, there's no little audio engineer behind your stereo saying "oi, only send the kick and bass to woofer, eh?" It's just mixed in a way that it comes out of the speaker that it's supposed to.

Some people like to do it, which makes sense in bigger concerts, so they can bump one fader and increase the overall intensity of the low end for specific passages, without having to move a number of faders. But for a typical bar band with a more or less unattended mixer, there's no point. Just tune and crossover the system properly, and then set an overall appropriate "best all around" level for each instrument, whether low end or not, with the aforementioned high pass filtering. I tend to find, especially in smaller spaces and with louder bands, that the level I want the bass fader to be, I literally can't get the sub send fader high enough to get that low end bump into the sub, unless I start to drastically EQ the bass, which I try to avoid. It's just one more level of gain staging to potentially screw up.

So the more a band has NO CLUE what they are really doing with sound and/or just don't have someone dedicated to keeping an eye on everything, they more they should avail themselves of technological assists. Get a DriveRack and an RTA mic, and use them. Run the wizards at the beginning of the show, let it assess the response of the speakers in the room, automatically EQ, etc... and it will even automatically deal with feedback. Then you just EQ your channels as necessary, high pass judiciously, and Bob's your uncle.



I assume he's referring to powered subs with a high passed through out and powered mains. As someone else mentioned though, different manufacturers tend to do the division of labor differently. Sometimes the subs will high pass and send on, sometimes they mains will low pass and send on, sometimes both, sometimes neither. That's why it's good to have a DriveRack and then not worry about the DSP on your speakers at all (unless you gain something else from it, like some will have a short delay setting, etc...).

Aux fed subs are sometimes a great tool for pros but often a challenge for casual users, as is the DriveRacks. I've seen some shows completely screwed up from improper or confused use.

Matched powered subs & tops designed to work together is imo the most foolproof way to go.

 

[Omega Monkey]

I definitely wouldn't recommend just getting random subs and random mains, plugging into a DriveRack and letting er rip. But if someone is literate enough to RT( )M for the speaker/sub DSP and the DriveRack, they might at least get SOME of the benefits of having a proper PA. Obviously there's no substitute for an actual engineer on hand, thats how I make my living. But from a consumer point of view, yeah, let the technology do the work.

Anyway, in the local market I work in, I often see aux subs used when someone "knows just enough to be dangerous", but not enough to really high pass things as much as needed, rather than using them for some elevated purpose. If your subs are "crossed over" (not really if they're on an aux) at 150 or 200 and you're high passing channels at say 100 or maybe not at all, you're still sending unnecessary lows and low mids to the PA. I just think it's better hygiene to assume you're going to have to deal with unwanted frequencies at the channel level, unless it's an actual system or room issue to begin with, in which case it's usually pulled out with a graphic, DriveRack, or other processing.

I will use aux subs if it's someone else's system (and not be particularly happy about it), or sometimes on my own if there isn't the budget/time to have the DriveRack and do all the setup. But I definitely don't prefer it. And I doubt most bands would end up preferring aux subs if they did a number of shows the other way, with the system tuned and crossed over and doing necessary channel filtering and EQ'ing. "Oh, you mean I just set one level per channel, and if I need to change the EQ balance of that channel, I change it on the EQ for that channel? Wild stuff man."

Anyway, yeah I think it can make sense in some situations (that most people will probably NEVER face), but otherwise is largely a holdover from the analog days where you had minimal control, and putting only some channels on an aux send to the sub was a way to get a little more control. And at some point you actually DON'T want to introduce unnecessary variables if you can help it, ESPECIALLY if you don't know what you're doing. And using a 31 band graphic on your subs and mains is just ultimately NOT the same as having a proper low or high pass filter. Just because you make a nice shapely curve with the sliders on the front of the unit or in the software UI, doesn't mean that's actually what's happening electrically. I know YOU know that, but most people probably don't think about it in that way.

 

[agedhorse]

Subs on an aux send are most certainly crossed over, the low pass is generally identical to the top cabinets but fed from another input on the crossover or system processor. This is the most common way to do it (at least at my level and above. The aux bus is fed post fader so that whatever happens, the sub tracks the channel fader.

 

[Wasnex]

Subs on an aux send are most certainly crossed over, the low pass is generally identical to the top cabinets but fed from another input on the crossover or system processor. This is the most common way to do it (at least at my level and above. The aux bus is fed post fader so that whatever happens, the sub tracks the channel fader.

I have couple of old KT DN9848E processors that I bought to play around with: 4 in/8 out with wireless network control. These have internal matrixes so each input can be routed to any and/or all outputs at whatever ratios you want. The DN9848E also has discrete processing on each input and output to include delay, parametric EQ, and compression. Additionally, the outputs have look-ahead limiters, various crossover filters, and all pass filters.

Fantasy:
I could do something like LCR on input 1,2,3, but feed the low frequency instruments like bass and bass drum only to input 4. Left input 1 could be routed to a 3-way crossover set up on outputs 1,2,3. Right input 3 could be routed to a 3-way crossover set up on outputs 4,5,6. Center input 2 could be routed to output 7, for example for small lip fill speakers. This leaves output 8 for the subs.

LR outputs are set up to function as mid/highs and high-passed at say 80-100hz. Output 8 would drive the subs with an LPF that is complementary to the mid/highs. Given the size and capabilities of lip fills, I might run the HPF up a bit higher on output 7.

Rather than having input 4 just feed the subs, it would also feed the mid/highs at whatever ratio I choose. In other words, if I turn up the bass guitar or kick on the mixer, the level increases equally in all assigned outputs; so the balance between the subs and mid/highs remains constant.

If I need to adjust the over system volume and I can set up a ganged control on the DN9848E.

I think most of this can be done on better digital mixers these days...so high end processors like the DN9848E are not longer very common.