ACME LOW B 210 views -worth this?

[rodl2005]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Bass-Guitar-...ryZ58718QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Anyone got any views on this ACME LOW B 2 x 10" is it worth this- more/less remember this is AUS $$$$ a SVT410HLF sells for C.$1600 Berg NV610 $1900
Wish we had US values on gear but.........
What these ACME's like?

 

[Bass Clef]

Hey Rod, "PROCEED WITH CAUTION"

The seller says he has had the drivers replaced which tells me what I have known all along regarding Acme - you need to drive them with plenty of juice, 600-700+watts or else there's a pretty good chance you'll kill'em. I know I'd rather save my pennies and go for a Berg anyday.

 

[jz0h4d]

For the 1000th time you cannot kill speakers by underpowering them.

 

[KJung]

For the 1000th time you cannot kill speakers by underpowering them.

+1.. most of the Acme blow ups are from people putting huge amounts of power into those 250 (EDIT: My mistake... 350 watts RMS) watt cabs (210)and 'overextending' those somewhat fragile hi xmax drivers (the infamous Acme 'cone creasing' issue).

The Acme's are an unfortunate combination of low SPL (i.e., need a lot of power), and low suggested maximum power ratings.... strange.

 

[BassmanPaul]

I find the hype that some how go along with Acme speakers fascinating! Bass Clef do you actually own a B2?? I have four and let me tell you they are worth every penny I paid for them. They are rated, incidentally at 350W not 250W. I have read of players who consider that an Acme cabinet requires 500W per cone or 1KW per B2 in order for them to sound good. IMHO that is nuts and does indeed lead to damaged cones just like any other abuse would damage a cone. Acmes tend to take abuse and keep on giving great sound even when they are being destroyed.

My experience is this: yes the Acme likes power and is inefficient. This is one of the consequences of getting low frequency response from a small cabinet. I bought my first about ten years ago and I was blown away by the sound I got from a 100W amp. I immediately bought another. A second pair followed as soon as I could afford them. Thus I have a pair of Series Is and a pair of series IIs.

In use I have gigged with one in a small eatery but usually use two. I drive them one per channel from mostly a Carvin DCM1000 power amp. This gives me 350W per cabinet for the maximum the box is rated for. They sound wonderful!!

To cover the topic of replacing speakers. I have had to replace three speakers. One I punched a hole in the surround when my screwdriver slipped. (I had to pull the speaker to replace a blown crossover bulb) The other two: I had left the cabinets in my van overnight. The temperature sank to -40C that night. I loaded in to the gig and without thinking dropped a low B at a good level into the cabs. Shattered the surround of one speaker in each cabinet. It was a long night after that I can tell you!!! All three speakers were replaced when Andy Lewis replaced them at his cost price plus shipping.

In my opinion Acme makes the best speakers available and I will use no other.

Paul

 

[alexclaber]

Yes.

Alex

 

[Bluesy Soul]

.. most of the Acme blow ups are from people putting huge amounts of power into those 250 watt cabs (210)and 'overextending' those somewhat fragile hi xmax drivers (the infamous Acme 'cone creasing' issue).

The Acme's are an unfortunate combination of low SPL (i.e., need a lot of power), and low suggested maximum power ratings.... strange.

I really disagree.

I own both Acmes and Bergantinos and I practice and perform--in venues of all sizes--with both regularly. In some settings, I actually prefer the Acmes to the Bergantinos. Ken is correct in asserting that most Acme blow-ups result from users putting huge amounts of power into the cabs and overextending them, but I don't know where he got the idea that Acmes 2x10s (i.e., Low B-2s) are rated for only 250 watts or that Acme's hi-max drivers are "somewhat fragile".

To the contrary, Acmes' "infamous cone creasing issue", IMO, results from those drivers being anything but fragile. As many Acme users can and will tell you, the well-known low efficiency of Acmes and the strength and resilience of those hi-max drivers do create a perception of indestructability that sometimes causes users to recklessly overdrive them. I know. I've done it. I creased a cone in my Low B-1 after stupidly thinking I could apply more than five times the max power Acme suggests and, through careful volume control, keep up with two very loud guitarists and not damage the driver. Suffice to say that I learned my lesson, but the failure wasn't due to any shortcoming of the driver or the cabinet. It was 100% operator foolishness.

I live about 5 minutes from Acme and have discussed this issue with Andy on more than one occasion. I believe Andy Lewis--and Jim Bergantino--are two of the most knowledgeable manufacturers we could have designing bass speaker cabinets for us.

Andy knew--probably better than anyone--that an extended max was required to get a 31-Hz response from a 10" driver and that it would be comparatively inefficient. He also knew that reproducing that low fundamental and handling significant amounts of power would create an illusion of invincibility that would intoxicate some users and cause them to go overboard. But he also knew there is no free lunch. So what was his option when some fools--including myself--misused his product just as he expected? Rate it very conservatively. It's natural and logical--not "strange".

Andy knows a Low B-2 is barely getting warmed up at its 350-watt rating and that it's just starting to sing at 500 watts. I regularly drive my Low B-2 with 600-700 watts and have never had it hiccup or flinch. That's hardly "fragile" for two 10-inch drivers! I'm disappointed that you were so critical and, IMO, unfairly mischaracterized the durability and reliability of Acmes.

OP, search past Acme threads here at TB and find out which is more prevalent: Acme users who are thrilled at the clean tone and response of their Acmes (especially on the low end) or Acme users who have encountered cone creasing that likely results from something other than their own misuse. And then perform the ultimate test. Listen to Acmes with adequate (but not reckless) power and compare them to any similarly-configured speaker cabinets designed by John Dong, Nick Epifani or anyone else.

Oh, and while you're at it, see if you can figure out where Ken came up with that 250-watt "spec"...

Bluesy Soul

 

[Johnny Crab]

I like 'em fine.

We feed them 700+ watts each with 1 side of a QSC 2402.
FWIW, my son uses one hooked up to a 120 Behringer combo's speaker output(instead of the Behringer speaker). Sounds amazing at practice-in-your-bedroom volume but the Behringer gets cranked pretty hard. That would be very underpowered for gigging. Once you go into the "amp pushed so hard it's distorting" zone, THEN you may get problems.

 

[KJung]

I really disagree.

I own both Acmes and Bergantinos and I practice and perform--in venues of all sizes--with both regularly. In some settings, I actually prefer the Acmes to the Bergantinos. Ken is correct in asserting that most Acme blow-ups result from users putting huge amounts of power into the cabs and overextending them, but I don't know where he got the idea that Acmes 2x10s (i.e., Low B-2s) are rated for only 250 watts or that Acme's hi-max drivers are "somewhat fragile".

To the contrary, Acmes' "infamous cone creasing issue", IMO, results from those drivers being anything but fragile. As many Acme users can and will tell you, the well-known low efficiency of Acmes and the strength and resilience of those hi-max drivers do create a perception of indestructability that sometimes causes users to recklessly overdrive them. I know. I've done it. I creased a cone in my Low B-1 after stupidly thinking I could apply more than five times the max power Acme suggests and, through careful volume control, keep up with two very loud guitarists and not damage the driver. Suffice to say that I learned my lesson, but the failure wasn't due to any shortcoming of the driver or the cabinet. It was 100% operator foolishness.

I live about 5 minutes from Acme and have discussed this issue with Andy on more than one occasion. I believe Andy Lewis--and Jim Bergantino--are two of the most knowledgeable manufacturers we could have designing bass speaker cabinets for us.

Andy knew--probably better than anyone--that an extended max was required to get a 31-Hz response from a 10" driver and that it would be comparatively inefficient. He also knew that reproducing that low fundamental and handling significant amounts of power would create an illusion of invincibility that would intoxicate some users and cause them to go overboard. But he also knew there is no free lunch. So what was his option when some fools--including myself--misused his product just as he expected? Rate it very conservatively. It's natural and logical--not "strange".

Andy knows a Low B-2 is barely getting warmed up at its 350-watt rating and that it's just starting to sing at 500 watts. I regularly drive my Low B-2 with 600-700 watts and have never had it hiccup or flinch. That's hardly "fragile" for two 10-inch drivers! I'm disappointed that you were so critical and, IMO, unfairly mischaracterized the durability and reliability of Acmes.

OP, search past Acme threads here at TB and find out which is more prevalent: Acme users who are thrilled at the clean tone and response of their Acmes (especially on the low end) or Acme users who have encountered cone creasing that likely results from something other than their own misuse. And then perform the ultimate test. Listen to Acmes with adequate (but not reckless) power and compare them to any similarly-configured speaker cabinets designed by John Dong, Nick Epifani or anyone else.

Oh, and while you're at it, see if you can figure out where Ken came up with that 250-watt "spec"...

Bluesy Soul

Mea Culpa on the 250.. it's 350.

Acme's sound great... they seem to have lot's of speaker failure. That seems to come from pumping too much power into them, which many people seem to do to make up for the low SPL, combined with one of the lowest power ratings of any boutique 210 out there. That was the point of my post, and I've seen nothing on this thread that would change my opinion of that!

I am not saying that those who love them shouldn't, but even the guy above ealier in this thread who loves his cabs blew some speakers out. Sorry, it's an issue with these cabs.

Yes, if you apply a hi pass filter, this issue would go away. However, if you apply a hi pass filter to tighten up the low end like many do, why not just get a cab that has that tight low end built in (and increase the overall SPL to boot!).

Again.. the idea of combining an extremely low SPL cab with relatively low power handling woofers seems to be a formula for speaker failure. From what I've seen and experienced, this formula seems to be accurate, and there are many, many, many posts from Acme users concerning this cone creasing issue.

This DOES NOT mean that they sound bad (even though I don't dig the tone for most applications), nor does it mean that they are low quality. It DOES mean that more than any other piece of gear I've owned, you can get into trouble and do damage to these if you aren't careful (as reinforced by the seller the OP is dealing with saying that 'the speakers have been replaced... and by you blowing a driver).

It just 'is'... and it should be pointed out to potential purchasers IMO.

 

[Bluesy Soul]

Acme's sound great... they seem to have lot's of speaker failure. That seems to come from pumping too much power into them, which many people seem to do to make up for the low SPL, combined with one of the lowest power ratings of any boutique 210 out there. That was the point of my post, and I've seen nothing on this thread that would change my opinion of that!

I am not saying that those who love them shouldn't, but even the guy above ealier in this thread who loves his cabs blew some speakers out. Sorry, it's an issue with these cabs.

Yes, if you apply a hi pass filter, this issue would go away. However, if you apply a hi pass filter to tighten up the low end like many do, why not just get a cab that has that tight low end built in (and increase the overall SPL to boot!).

Again.. the idea of combining an extremely low SPL cab with relatively low power handling woofers seems to be a formula for speaker failure. From what I've seen and experienced, this formula seems to be accurate, and there are many, many, many posts from Acme users concerning this cone creasing issue.

This DOES NOT mean that they sound bad (even though I don't dig the tone for most applications), nor does it mean that they are low quality. It DOES mean that more than any other piece of gear I've owned, you can get into trouble and do damage to these if you aren't careful (as reinforced by the seller the OP is dealing with saying that 'the speakers have been replaced... and by you blowing a driver).

It just 'is'... and it should be pointed out to potential purchasers IMO.

I wasn't defending Acme's tone or sound. That speaks for itself. I was challenging your unjustified assertion that there is anything inferior about Acme's drivers or that Acme uses "relatively low power handling woofers". You've cited nothing to support that.

Yes, there are instances where users have creased drivers, but place the blame where it lies--on the user not the product. Applying your logic, sports cars cause speeding tickets and pencils cause spelling errors. What happened to personal accountability and reasonable use?

Bluesy Soul

 

[KJung]

I wasn't defending Acme's tone or sound. That speaks for itself. I was challenging your unjustified assertion that there is anything inferior about Acme's drivers or that Acme uses "relatively low power handling woofers". You've cited nothing to support that.

Yes, there are instances where users have creased drivers, but place the blame where it lies--on the user not the product. Applying your logic, sports cars cause speeding tickets and pencils cause spelling errors. What happened to personal accountability and reasonable use?

Bluesy Soul

+1... I was just pointing out that my relatively high efficiency Berg210, Epi210, etc. are rated at 500 watts RMS. It always seemed like a disconnect to me that the Amce210 was among the lowest power rated boutique 210 out there, but yet benefits from the most power. That, again, combined with what seems like a MUCH higher rate of speaker failure than other cabs (user error, or whatever... don't know) suggests that some heftier drivers would solve the problem.

I was always impressed with the old EA VL-210's. Very similar tone as the Acme to me... deep low end extension, three way design for those nice organic, even mids, and a rather polite, paper cone sounding natural top end. However, those things (rated at 500 watts) could stand the biggest pounding I've ever given a cab... you could just WUMP them and I don't recall any type of speaker failure or cone creasing issue with those (the newer EA's are a totally different story).

I'm sure there is a reason Andy doesn't use drivers with a higher power rating. Maybe it would change the sound, or make the cabs even less efficient, or raise the cost enough to lower demand, or whatever. It just always seemed strange to me.

Just IMO and IME there, as always.

 

[James Hart]

I believe Andy Lewis--and Jim Bergantino--are two of the most knowledgeable manufacturers we could have designing bass speaker cabinets for us.

Agreed completely....

FWIW: the Acme stuff is the ONLY 2x10" cab I'd consider owning.

 

[greenboy]

Personallly, Ken, I think you go out of your way too often to point out what you think is wrong with Acmes. I don't use them either, but I think you are lumping on the designer of the drivers, the cabs, and the successful users all because of the guys that don't RTM or apply common sense.

Now. Even with a decently chosen high pass filter, the Acmes are capable of more LF output than a vast majority of bass cabs of similar size without a filter. And unlike them, there isn't any possibility of unloading below f0, which is one of the big reasons we see so many drivers blowing in other cabs around here. Along with exceeding excursion in the passband of course, which happens a lot less with Acmes ; }

Awful thin line between informing and dissing, or promoting one's own choices, I suppose. Creeps me right out.

 

[greenboy]

I'm sure there is a reason Andy doesn't use drivers with a higher power rating. Maybe it would change the sound, or make the cabs even less efficient, or raise the cost enough to lower demand, or whatever. It just always seemed strange to me.

Because there weren't/aren't any?

Really. The drivers in your favored cab may have a higher RMS rating, but they'd be gone if you actually applied that much continusos power to them unless you had the bass rolled off, because they are limited by xmax rather than by thermal. Opposite of the Acmes.

I think a lot of bass players think that when they hook a power amp or head with a 1000 watt rating up that they automatically are using that much wattage when they turn up. Not always so - used correctly the amp is on the average producing maybe 1/8 to at the most 1/4 its rated power.

 

[KJung]

Personallly, Ken, I think you go out of your way too often to point out what you think is wrong with Acmes. I don't use them either, but I think you are lumping on the designer of the drivers, the cabs, and the successful users all because of the guys that don't RTM or apply common sense.

Now. Even with a decently chosen high pass filter, the Acmes are capable of more LF output than a vast majority of bass cabs of similar size without a filter. And unlike them, there isn't any possibility of unloading below f0, which is one of the big reasons we see so many drivers blowing in other cabs around here. Along with exceeding excursion in the passband of course, which happens a lot less with Acmes ; }

Awful thin line between informing and dissing, or promoting one's own choices, I suppose. Creeps me right out.

I always try to accurately communicate my experience with stuff I've owned. I guess I am a little hard on some stuff, but it is based on honest feelings, LOT's of gigging experience (I used two B210's and a B110 for quite a while) and also from my almost religious perusing of threads with gear I'm interested in.

I agree I don't sugar coat, and I also agree that my impressions are no better than anyone elses, and that TBer's should give my musings no more weight than anyone else.

HOWEVER..... if I'm not mistaken, most of the Acme users on this thread have had the cone creasing problems And these are users who seem to know what they are doing.

I again find that negative comments by former users of gear can be at least, if not more enlightening than the totally positive comments of users.

If I'm too hard on Acme, I don't mean to be, but IMO, there is something funky going on with that design. For guys like Alexclaber, etc., who really are into the tech part of this, have the right hi pass filters, etc., etc., I obviously see no problem.

For the rest of the schmo's like me who are looking for a cab that can do a gig without having to attach a science lab to it, and that you can pound on for years without even thinking about having a problem, quite frankly, I would not recommend these.

Sorry if I seem to be pounding on them.

Regarding promoting my choice... I did not make a recommendation on this thread... only a caution based on my experience, and what seems like others' similar experience

That being said, you know what you are talking about... why doesn't Andy kick up the power ratings of those drivers and reduce this issue?

 

[James Hart]

Just curious, why would that be?

because as a rule I dislike 10s... as a bigger rule I really dislike modern 2x10"+Horn type cabs that EVERYONE builds. That said, I've dug what I've heard of the Acme stuff I've tried and/or heard used AND I much enjoyed the time I spent with Andy on the phone while researching cabs after letting my last boutique cab go.

 

[KJung]

because as a rule I dislike 10s... as a bigger rule I really dislike modern 2x10"+Horn type cabs that EVERYONE builds. That said, I've dug what I've heard of the Acme stuff I've tried and/or heard used AND I much enjoyed the time I spent with Andy on the phone while researching cabs after letting my last boutique cab go.

+1.. I erased my post with the question. If you dislike modern 210's with horns, then obviously these, along with the Accugroove stuff,or the old EA VL line is pretty cool... warm, fat and organic sounding.

 

[greenboy]

Ken, I just see so many blown and damaged drivers in all makes that I don't think Acme stands out particularly. Especially if you consider that its users are after LF performance among other things, which many bass players forgo, knowingly or not. So there are some differences.

The biggest mistake I see is that people have expectations without experience, and don't know when to add cabs/drivers. It's actually trickier with the Acmes perhaps, because a dedicated midrange keeps a lot of midrange distortion from appearing when the woofer is near its limits.

A lot of users have learned the hard way after upping the average wattage to ridiculous levels that it's smarter to add more cabs/drivers becasue there's no way around Hoffman's Iron Law, or thermal buildup or excursion limits either.

As far as users of more conventional bass cabs, not many of them are going to do nearly as well once they actually try to get the same amount of sub-100 Hz content. You choose your poison ; }

 

[Kindness]

The drivers in your favored cab may have a higher RMS rating, but they'd be gone if you actually applied that much continusos power to them unless you had the bass rolled off, because they are limited by xmax rather than by thermal. Opposite of the Acmes.

This is the point that seems to be most often misunderstood or overlooked so I'll quote it to draw more attention to it.

 

[James Hart]

+1.. I erased my post with the question. If you dislike modern 210's with horns, then obviously these, along with the Accugroove stuff (although that 210 is really awful, uneven, and suprisingly non-articulate in the mids.... ooops... I guess I'll get into trouble again for my impression that isn't totally positive) or the old EA VL line is pretty cool... warm, fat and organic sounding.

no reason to erase the question... it was completely valid. I should have qualified my original response some.

As we've touched on before... I'm a tube guy with a taste for old school hifi tone (sure, that ain't confusing ). No tweeters, no horns... but bright, full and articulate