Double Bass Acoustic A1000

[bobsax]

This was a stupid deal on Musicians friend and I’ve been looking for a bass amp wedge that could take a vocal. The only problem with this thing is it’s not handling the low notes of the upright. You think some kind of floor box/EQ will send a signal that it doesn’t overload? I Had to turn the low EQ all the way off to get an a decent sound out of it but still it’s peeking with volume levels just around nine or 10 o’clock

 

[Wasnex]

Just to be clear, the A1000 delivers 2x50W into a pair of 8" speakers, and is most likely designed for acoustic guitar.

Upright bass tends to be pretty hard on speakers due to the strong impulse it produces at the front end of plucked notes.

You could try an HPF. It would probably help some, but I would not be surprised if you blow the speakers. IMHO be very careful or the A1000 will become an expensive doorstop.

FYI Gollihur got together with Genzler to create bass specific Acoustic Array. I believe they mostly loaded cab with the driver from the BA10-2 bass cab. This is necessary because the regular Acoustic Array is intended for guitar. Probably the biggest down-side is it's not $299.

If you are interested: Gollihur Series Bass Acoustic Array Pro Amplification (Exclusive) (gollihurmusic.com)

 

[Ric Vice]

Genz Benz also had a Acoustic Amp that was really intended for Guitar, it just couldn't handle the low end of a Double Bass. Weirdly enough if the amp is designed correctly you can have a nice

small compact DB amplifier like the Gollihur Genzler Bass Acoustic Array or The Traynor SB 106.

 

[bassically_eli]

My first thought after reading the OP was to try it with an HPF, but after Wasnex's post, I realize it would probably need a limiter as well (to keep the amp from distorting and/or the speakers away from over excursion). The odds of it sounding good with all that seem very slim....

What about the Fishman Loudbox line? I've been told that those work for bass, but I remain a bit skeptical. I sure wouldn't mind if they started making a Loudbox amp head, though. They have a lot of useful features at a good price point.--sorry if this is hijacking the thread

 

[Ric Vice]

I've looked at the amp's specifications and advertising. I was developed to be a Acoustic Guitar Amplifier along the lines of the Fishman Loudbox Amps, which are great for Guitar but
but not really designed to be Double Bass Amps. The speakers aren't really bass speakers and the amplifier is 100 watts into 4 ohms, divided between two "stereo channels". As with any
guitar amp, used as a bass amp their will be issues. I once owned a Supro Thunderbolt (actually a Airline Bass Amplifier) the back of the cabinet was entirely open so the bass frequencies
just dispersed unevenly out the back of the cabinet. Just my take of course .

 

[bobsax]

Thanks folks… Good info. I may end up just having to return it that’s a good thing about using Guitar Center.
I ordered the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Acoustic Guitar Preamp. It looks identical to the one they sell at Gollihur. Is this going to be overkill?… I know a lot of upright players use things like this. Any other recommendations HPFs? maybe something less expensive? … it will be interesting to see if the HPF works.
Btw
I spoke to Genzler years ago before the bass acoustic array from Gollihur and bought the original 2 channel model. I’ve used it with success on a pole for vocals and bass but I still use my small Genz-Benz Shuttle for gigs that I don’t sing on.

 

[Don Hergert]

Here's a question then... Can a "normal" bass amp be used for guitar and voice without damaging it? I guess I'm talking about the speakers in particular, so either a combo bass amp or the separate components.

If so, what are the plusses and minuses about this?

 

[bobsax]

Here's a question then... Can a "normal" bass amp be used for guitar and voice without damaging it? I guess I'm talking about the speakers in particular, so either a combo bass amp or the separate components.

If so, what are the plusses and minuses about this?

You know I should probably be looking at keyboard amps.… I’ve used my Genz-Benz-Shuttle as a keyboard amp for years.

 

[Ric Vice]

Here's a question then... Can a "normal" bass amp be used for guitar and voice without damaging it? I guess I'm talking about the speakers in particular, so either a combo bass amp or the separate components.

If so, what are the plusses and minuses about this?

It can and in the case of Acoustic Image Amps and MAS Speakers they can be very good, as I would think are Gollihur Genzler Acoustic Arrays would be. I believe Rick Wolfe has used his as a P.A. on occasion. A standard single driver bass amplifier would not be all that great because it would lack the midrange and high frequency drivers that more sophisticated cabinets have.

 

[bassically_eli]

It can and in the case of Acoustic Image Amps and MAS Speakers they can be very good, as I would think are Gollihur Genzler Acoustic Arrays would be. I believe Rick Wolfe has used his as a P.A. on occasion. A standard single driver bass amplifier would not be all that great because it would lack the midrange and high frequency drivers that more sophisticated cabinets have.

+1, this is exactly my understanding as well.

 

[bassically_eli]

Thanks folks… Good info. I may end up just having to return it that’s a good thing about using Guitar Center.
I ordered the Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Acoustic Guitar Preamp. It looks identical to the one they sell at Gollihur. Is this going to be overkill?… I know a lot of upright players use things like this. Any other recommendations HPFs? maybe something less expensive? … it will be interesting to see if the HPF works.
Btw
I spoke to Genzler years ago before the bass acoustic array from Gollihur and bought the original 2 channel model. I’ve used it with success on a pole for vocals and bass but I still use my small Genz-Benz Shuttle for gigs that I don’t sing on.

That should be an excellent preamp for a piezo equipped bass. Overkill? Well, that really depends on what else you have in your signal chain and what features you need. Do you need a tuner, footswitches, compressor? I think the semi-parametric EQ, notch, and HPF are all excellent features and will problem come in handy eventually, even if you don't think you need them now.

As far as cheaper options, there is of course the Fishman Platinum Stage and also the old Pro Platinum Bass preamp. I picked up the old Pro Platinum Bass on eBay last year for $54, and it's a great little preamp and DI, although it's lacking several features compared to the new one. LR Baggs also make a few affordable options.

 

[Wasnex]

Here's a question then... Can a "normal" bass amp be used for guitar and voice without damaging it? I guess I'm talking about the speakers in particular, so either a combo bass amp or the separate components.

If so, what are the plusses and minuses about this?

A bass amp should be entirely safe with vocals. Whether it will sound good with either is a another matter. It may, depending on the design.

Guitar does pose some potential hazard for bass cabinets with tweeters. A bass does not generally produce a lot of power in the range of the tweeter. Also any power that is produced with bass guitar is generally a short transient. Bowed acoustic bass distributes the power a bit different. No sure how much power they generate above 3-3.5kHz which is about the lower limit of were tweeters are crossed in most bass cabs. But people don't usually crank bowed upright.

The hazard with guitar comes from high-volume distortion. Distortion adds compression which lowers the peaks but increases the average power. Also distortion creates harmonics which shift power up into the tweeters range. Most tweeters in bass cabs are rated for only about 30W, and @agedhorse has stated that they are really only good for about 15W continuous, although they handle signficantly higher power on short transients. So if you are cranking guitar through a 800W bass amps, I am sure you can see that it's relatively easy to send too much power to the tweeter.

My guess is you are not plannning on really cranking guitar through your bass amp, so I don't think it should pose significant risk IMHO.

Acoustic guitar could also pose a threat to the tweeter. If you get a high frequency feedback spike, it could easily take out a tweeter.

 

[Don Hergert]

Thank you for these answers, I've been curious for a while.

The scenario I had in mind is, in a pinch, running a "standard" dynamic mic like a Shure 58 through my combo bass amp primarily for voice, possibly with acoustic guitar, and/or banjo, with an acoustic DB in the background -- not expecting it to pick up much but the voices.

This is not something I'd expect to replace a good FOH with, but something I've kept in mind as a possibility since a festival we played at where the FOH sound crew had a schedule screw-up and missed our Sunday Gospel Hour show by 30 minutes...

We ended up moving off-stage and played completely without mics under a tree for an hour to between 100 and 200 people in the audience who were basically standing up in front of us. While it was a great experience for us and the audience, and really something that acoustic artists often dream about doing, our vocalists had sore throats for the next couple of days from having to push the volume so hard. A single mic primarily for them would have been nice and probably would have saved them from having to push singing so loud.

Obviously the sound crew were a little embarrassed but the show had to go on.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you for these answers, I've been curious for a while.

The scenario I had in mind is, in a pinch, running a "standard" dynamic mic like a Shure 58 through my combo bass amp primarily for voice, possibly with acoustic guitar, and/or banjo, with an acoustic DB in the background -- not expecting it to pick up much but the voices.

This is not something I'd expect to replace a good FOH with, but something I've kept in mind as a possibility since a festival we played at where the FOH sound crew had a schedule screw-up and missed our Sunday Gospel Hour show by 30 minutes...

We ended up moving off-stage and played completely without mics under a tree for an hour to between 100 and 200 people in the audience who were basically standing up in front of us. While it was a great experience for us and the audience, and really something that acoustic artists often dream about doing, our vocalists had sore throats for the next couple of days from having to push the volume so hard. A single mic primarily for them would have been nice and probably would have saved them from having to push singing so loud.

Obviously the sound crew were a little embarrassed but the show had to go on.

For best results you want a Line Matching Transformer. A Line Matching Transformer converts the signal from low impedance to high impedance. This increases the voltage of signal. The Matching Transformer also converts the signal from balance to unbalance in a way that does not reduce the signal level.

I have used the Shure A95UF. You can find these for about $40. There are less expensive models on the market, just make sure you get one with the proper sex on the XLR connector or you will need to buy and XLR turn around.

One other thing to consider is to avoid putting the speaker where it will shoot into the front of the mic. For best results the speaker should be behind the mic and aimed at the audience. This is not ideal for you to hear your bass, but it should significantly increase gain before feedback.

 

[Don Hergert]

Yes!!! Thank you for mentioning it. I have inline impedance matching transformers in with my mic for this purpose, and the sex is right.

And yes, the speaker goes behind the mic, elevated as much as possible so it isn't playing into the audience's feet.

I'm glad to hear this is feasible... It will be part of my kit from here on. But I hope to never have to use it.

 

[bassfiddlesteve]

FWIW I have a Fishman Loudbox Mini and it works surprisingly well for double bass (I use a Fishman Full Circle pickup). I don't know if I'd use it in a large group with a drummer, but in an acoustic duo it sounded fine and since I also sing I was able to plug my vocal mic into the other channel.

- Steve

 

[Ric Vice]

I tried the smaller Fishman Loudbox, and it certainly wasn't the right match for my Mirecourt 5/8 Bass with the Ehrlund EAP and a Headway EDB/2. I have used the Traynor SB 106 with resounding success in mostly Trio's and Quartet's

 

[bobsax]

Anybody tried this acoustic image
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[Wasnex]

Anybody tried this acoustic image
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Not sure exactly which model and series, but yes I have played through a 2-channel Clarus. Good sounding amp IMHO with bass guitar and upright through an EA NL210. I did not try a mic.

 

[Ric Vice]

Although I don’t own one, I’ve played through one and it’s a very transparent amp with all the features anyone would need for Double Bass, lots of headroom, and the
considered to have the best customer service in the bass amp business. They are fairly expensive but no more than a comparable Bergantino or Gentzler Magellan.