Acoustic-only bass guitar build

[Filip Sever]

Hello all!

I am in need of a true acoustic bass guitar and I wanted to get some advice before contacting a luthier.
The idea is a very large body, so as to allow for some real acoustic power (I'm pretty tall, so I'd like to use that to my advantage) and a tone that is not too bass-biased, so as not to limit potential volume and to make it more suitable for chordal playing. A good sustain is crucial (I use drones a lot).
So, really big, loud, balanced bass and mids, long sustain, no electronics, meant to be played unamplified. Also, meant to be worn, and to be playable standing up and walking.

I have a few specific questions also:

Am I correct in assuming that, everything else being equal, a fretted model will produce more total acoustic volume, and have a longer sustain, than a fretless one?

A high string action will be employed to boost the volume - I'm hoping this will also serve to eliminate fret buzz problems, even when plucking really hard. Does this sound realistic?

Do you think an "angled" position - where the player doesn't have his belly against the back of the instrument, but, rather, only touches the upper edge of it's back with it, would improve the volume and sustain?

Any and all advice is much appreciated.

 

[mikeoso]

All of your thinking is on the right lines. A few to look at would be the Earthwood, Tacoma Thunderchief, guitarrone, etc.

If I were designing one...
Spruce top, mahogany back and sides
Biggest possible body...minimum 19x6x25
Arched back
Full scale
Fretted board
High action
Stringthrough or pin bridge, not trapeze
No cutaway
An armrest (like the John Pearse ones)..keeps your arm from damping the top

Angling the back is interesting. Most folks say the back reflects, doesnt resonate. If that's true, then the damping effect wouldnt matter much. But I'm no luthier.

Check in with the acoustic bass fetish club. Acoustic bass fetish club Part 2

 

[Basvarken]

It will never be loud enough to compete with an acoustic guitar. Even if it's huge (like the Tacoma)
It you want an acoustic bass that is loud enough, you'd have to go for a double bass.

I built an acoustic bass guitar years ago, with the same goal. And I failed. Gloriously. ;-) It wasn't any louder than a regular acoustic bass,
The body was huge and deep. With a bass bar and staple (like a cello). The two holes on the top side were sound ports.

I also made a hole in the side for projection to oneself while playing (and for access to the staple)

 

[Arie X]

I have a few specific questions also:

Am I correct in assuming that, everything else being equal, a fretted model will produce more total acoustic volume, and have a longer sustain, than a fretless one?

-yep

A high string action will be employed to boost the volume - I'm hoping this will also serve to eliminate fret buzz problems, even when plucking really hard. Does this sound realistic?

-how high is your idea of high? too high, and the bridge torque increases quite a lot causing structural problems. unless you are going tailpiece, in which case you are putting a good amount of downward force into the top causing other problems. then there is the hand problems that go along with high action. i would think hard about this.

Do you think an "angled" position - where the player doesn't have his belly against the back of the instrument, but, rather, only touches the upper edge of it's back with it, would improve the volume and sustain?

-this would work on an instrument whose back is in active mode where it works with the top. problem is that one's body rests on the back dampening it. this is why you see concert classical guitarists playing in a way that the body doesn't touch the back allowing it to "work" and contribute to tone. but a lot of builders construct the back in reflective mode meaning that the back plate bounces air pressure off of it. in this model, body dampening doesn't matter so much.

the other option is a double back. in this form, there is an additional back plate made inside the instrument that responds to air pressure independently of the outer back, contributes to tone, and isn't dampened by the player.

 

[daveman50]

It will never be loud enough to compete with an acoustic guitar. Even if it's huge (like the Tacoma)
It you want an acoustic bass that is loud enough, you'd have to go for a double bass.

I built an acoustic bass guitar years ago, with the same goal. And I failed. Gloriously. ;-) It wasn't any louder than a regular acoustic bass,
The body was huge and deep. With a bass bar and staple (like a cello). The two holes on the top side were sound ports.

View attachment 4366873
View attachment 4366874

I also made a hole in the side for projection to oneself while playing (and for access to the staple)

View attachment 4366875

Wow. That thing is beautiful.

 

[Arie X]

It will never be loud enough to compete with an acoustic guitar. Even if it's huge (like the Tacoma)
It you want an acoustic bass that is loud enough, you'd have to go for a double bass.

I built an acoustic bass guitar years ago, with the same goal. And I failed. Gloriously. ;-) It wasn't any louder than a regular acoustic bass,
The body was huge and deep. With a bass bar and staple (like a cello). The two holes on the top side were sound ports.

View attachment 4366873
View attachment 4366874

I also made a hole in the side for projection to oneself while playing (and for access to the staple)

View attachment 4366875

damn, that is a nice looking bass!

 

[Filip Sever]

All of your thinking is on the right lines. A few to look at would be the Earthwood, Tacoma Thunderchief, guitarrone, etc.

If I were designing one...
Spruce top, mahogany back and sides
Biggest possible body...minimum 19x6x25
Arched back
Full scale
Fretted board
High action
Stringthrough or pin bridge, not trapeze
No cutaway
An armrest (like the John Pearse ones)..keeps your arm from damping the top

Angling the back is interesting. Most folks say the back reflects, doesnt resonate. If that's true, then the damping effect wouldnt matter much. But I'm no luthier.

Check in with the acoustic bass fetish club. Acoustic bass fetish club Part 2

This is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks a heap!

 

[mikeoso]

This is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks a heap!

A Tacoma isnt a "huge" ABG...just a bit bigger than usual. At left is a Martin jumbo bass...16x21x4.75 box. Center is a Tacoma...17.5x22x5 box. Right is a custom, basically a clone of an Earthwood....19x25x6.5.

None of these, or any ABG ever, will put out volume in an acoustic combo the way an electric bass puts out in an electric combo. Not supposed to. Different music, venue, audience. Not an unplugged substitute for an electric bass.

Topic comes up once a month here. People will tell you no ABG can be worthwhile. And yet, others use them all the time.

OP, I'm guessing you know all this, or wouldnt have been asking the questions you did.

 

[Filip Sever]

It will never be loud enough to compete with an acoustic guitar. Even if it's huge (like the Tacoma)
It you want an acoustic bass that is loud enough, you'd have to go for a double bass.

I built an acoustic bass guitar years ago, with the same goal. And I failed. Gloriously. ;-) It wasn't any louder than a regular acoustic bass,
The body was huge and deep. With a bass bar and staple (like a cello). The two holes on the top side were sound ports.

View attachment 4366873
View attachment 4366874

I also made a hole in the side for projection to oneself while playing (and for access to the staple)

View attachment 4366875

That is one beautiful instrument.
I don't know if I'm able to correctly gauge it's size from the picture, but I had something much bigger (and, especially, deeper) in mind.

I know many bassists believe that the double bass is the only real acoustic option, but I respectfully disagree.
I studied double bass in music school (though not for very long). It is a glorious instrument, but it's not the instrument I need.

I'm no luthier, so this might be just me speaking from ignorance, but I believe the acoustic bass guitar is a very viable concept. There are a few reasons why many bassists disagree with this and they are all rooted in the fact that modern music is amplified. Modern bassists are used to playing with a very light touch (the "let the amp do the work" school), which, naturally, doesn't work acoustically. Neither does the low action most of them prefer. They try an acoustic bass, but, alas, they play it as if it were an electric one, lightly caressing the strings with their fingertips, almost always playing one note at a time. Of course that won't cut it next to a guitarist strumming hard on a dreadnought. Acoustic guitarists learned their craft from a long tradition that was focused on producing music acoustically. Most bass guitarists, on the other hand, follow a technical tradition that has almost no relationship to acoustic music.
Such bassists make up the vast majority of the market for bass guitars, including acoustic bass guitars. Many of them want an acoustic bass merely as a convenient practice tool. Meaning, they don't want them to differ drastically from electric ones.
Not too big (which ends up meaning not much bigger than the average acoustic guitar), highly playable and, above all, practical. Also, everybody wants to have the option to plug in, meaning, luthiers have another reason to keep the dimensions modest, so as to avoid feedback issues.
Then, we have the problem of the prevalent tone aesthetic. The "uprightish" tone seems to be the main goal. This often means stifling the mids (and, therefore, also the volume). (Is this the reason why many higher-end acoustic basses have pretty small soundholes? To make the tone more bass-biased?)
I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on the fact that the concept is perfectly viable. It just requires a bassist who is willing to play the instrument as it's supposed to be played and a luthier who actually wants to make an acoustic bass guitar, instead of an acoustic-shaped electric or a mini double bass.

 

[Filip Sever]

A Tacoma isnt a "huge" ABG...just a bit bigger than usual. At left is a Martin jumbo bass...16x21x4.75 box. Center is a Tacoma...17.5x22x5 box. Right is a custom, basically a clone of an Earthwood....19x25x6.5.
View attachment 4367591

None of these, or any ABG ever, will put out volume in an acoustic combo the way an electric bass puts out in an electric combo. Not supposed to. Different music, venue, audience. Not an unplugged substitute for an electric bass.

Topic comes up once a month here. People will tell you no ABG can be worthwhile. And yet, others use them all the time.

OP, I'm guessing you know all this, or wouldnt have been asking the questions you did.

Yes, I did do a good bit of lurking before posting the thread. I have postponed getting an acoustic bass, as so many people kept saying they don't really work.
When I finally went ahead and bought one, I was more than pleasantly surprised.
It's not a high-end bass by any means. I've seen bigger jumbo guitars. Solid spruce top, laminated mahogany back and sides.
But, lo and behold, it is more than capable of keeping up with my wife's classical guitar AND my pretty loud bass voice (of course, I don't play it like I would play an electric). So I figured, if a pretty budget-friendly option like this can be this serviceable, just imagine what a quality instrument three or four times it's size could sound like.
I basically live the "campfire fantasy" - we mostly practice and play together in the woods, while we're herding our goats, so acoustic (and portable) is the only way to go.

 

[Filip Sever]

I have a few specific questions also:

Am I correct in assuming that, everything else being equal, a fretted model will produce more total acoustic volume, and have a longer sustain, than a fretless one?

-yep

A high string action will be employed to boost the volume - I'm hoping this will also serve to eliminate fret buzz problems, even when plucking really hard. Does this sound realistic?

-how high is your idea of high? too high, and the bridge torque increases quite a lot causing structural problems. unless you are going tailpiece, in which case you are putting a good amount of downward force into the top causing other problems. then there is the hand problems that go along with high action. i would think hard about this.

Do you think an "angled" position - where the player doesn't have his belly against the back of the instrument, but, rather, only touches the upper edge of it's back with it, would improve the volume and sustain?

-this would work on an instrument whose back is in active mode where it works with the top. problem is that one's body rests on the back dampening it. this is why you see concert classical guitarists playing in a way that the body doesn't touch the back allowing it to "work" and contribute to tone. but a lot of builders construct the back in reflective mode meaning that the back plate bounces air pressure off of it. in this model, body dampening doesn't matter so much.

the other option is a double back. in this form, there is an additional back plate made inside the instrument that responds to air pressure independently of the outer back, contributes to tone, and isn't dampened by the player.

Thank you, some great new information here.

 

[Filip Sever]

A Tacoma isnt a "huge" ABG...just a bit bigger than usual. At left is a Martin jumbo bass...16x21x4.75 box. Center is a Tacoma...17.5x22x5 box. Right is a custom, basically a clone of an Earthwood....19x25x6.5.
View attachment 4367591

None of these, or any ABG ever, will put out volume in an acoustic combo the way an electric bass puts out in an electric combo. Not supposed to. Different music, venue, audience. Not an unplugged substitute for an electric bass.

Topic comes up once a month here. People will tell you no ABG can be worthwhile. And yet, others use them all the time.

OP, I'm guessing you know all this, or wouldnt have been asking the questions you did.

Also, it's really nice to see there are musicians who "get it" and who are making it work. I've enjoyed reading your posts on other threads.

 

[Basvarken]

That is one beautiful instrument.
I don't know if I'm able to correctly gauge it's size from the picture, but I had something much bigger (and, especially, deeper) in mind.

I know many bassists believe that the double bass is the only real acoustic option, but I respectfully disagree.
I studied double bass in music school (though not for very long). It is a glorious instrument, but it's not the instrument I need.

I'm no luthier, so this might be just me speaking from ignorance, but I believe the acoustic bass guitar is a very viable concept. There are a few reasons why many bassists disagree with this and they are all rooted in the fact that modern music is amplified. Modern bassists are used to playing with a very light touch (the "let the amp do the work" school), which, naturally, doesn't work acoustically. Neither does the low action most of them prefer. They try an acoustic bass, but, alas, they play it as if it were an electric one, lightly caressing the strings with their fingertips, almost always playing one note at a time. Of course that won't cut it next to a guitarist strumming hard on a dreadnought. Acoustic guitarists learned their craft from a long tradition that was focused on producing music acoustically. Most bass guitarists, on the other hand, follow a technical tradition that has almost no relationship to acoustic music.
Such bassists make up the vast majority of the market for bass guitars, including acoustic bass guitars. Many of them want an acoustic bass merely as a convenient practice tool. Meaning, they don't want them to differ drastically from electric ones.
Not too big (which ends up meaning not much bigger than the average acoustic guitar), highly playable and, above all, practical. Also, everybody wants to have the option to plug in, meaning, luthiers have another reason to keep the dimensions modest, so as to avoid feedback issues.
Then, we have the problem of the prevalent tone aesthetic. The "uprightish" tone seems to be the main goal. This often means stifling the mids (and, therefore, also the volume). (Is this the reason why many higher-end acoustic basses have pretty small soundholes? To make the tone more bass-biased?)
I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on the fact that the concept is perfectly viable. It just requires a bassist who is willing to play the instrument as it's supposed to be played and a luthier who actually wants to make an acoustic bass guitar, instead of an acoustic-shaped electric or a mini double bass.

If you play an acoustic bass harder - I mean really dig in - it will not produce much more decibels. It will only change the sound. All you'll hear more pronounced is the click of the strings, not the tone.

An inventor from Finland called Olavi Linden once developed a fully acoustic bass guitar with a built in mechanism like the Stroh-violin, connected to a rolled up tube inside the body. I was more than twice as loud as any other acoustic bass. But still barely enough to be heard in a fully acoustic setting with other acoustic instruments like guitars and a cajon.

He even made one with a huge horn outside (behind) the bass.

I can't find any videos of the fully acoustic bass. But here's one of one with a built in piezo. In the video it is not plugged in, so you hear the acoustic tone.





The bass that I built did produce an uprightish tone. But on a very modest volume.

 

[mikeoso]

Yes, I did do a good bit of lurking before posting the thread. I have postponed getting an acoustic bass, as so many people kept saying they don't really work.
When I finally went ahead and bought one, I was more than pleasantly surprised.
It's not a high-end bass by any means. I've seen bigger jumbo guitars. Solid spruce top, laminated mahogany back and sides.
But, lo and behold, it is more than capable of keeping up with my wife's classical guitar AND my pretty loud bass voice (of course, I don't play it like I would play an electric). So I figured, if a pretty budget-friendly option like this can be this serviceable, just imagine what a quality instrument three or four times it's size could sound like.
I basically live the "campfire fantasy" - we mostly practice and play together in the woods, while we're herding our goats, so acoustic (and portable) is the only way to go.

Sounds like you have a very realistic approach to it.

 

[abarson]

Plans and constructions tips for the Mottola Tinozza ABG
Tinozza Acoustic Bass Guitar (liutaiomottola.com)

 

[Videojunkie]

What about a guitarron? Or something similar?

Guitarrón mexicano - Wikipedia

 

[Beej]

Plans and constructions tips for the Mottola Tinozza ABG
Tinozza Acoustic Bass Guitar (liutaiomottola.com)

Cool reference vids. Morgan goes by @Nagromicon on this site and built a Tinozza for the 2020 Special Edition Build Off
Special Edition Build Off - Tinozza style

 

[T_Bone_TL]

As someone who actually plays full acoustic in a full acoustic, no amps at all band, may I suggest that you simply buy or build an upright bass? It works. It's not constrained by trying to be a guitar. It can keep up, un-amplified, with fiddle, mandolin/mandola/guitar/flute/whistle.

If you insist on building a guitar, figure out how to put about 3 cubic feet of air inside the body. Or look at the "Kickass Bass" design, which puts those 3 cubic feet of air in a bass drum, as the body.

I can make more volume by bowing than I can plucking, so once again, I suggest an upright...

 

[abarson]

Cool reference vids. Morgan goes by @Nagromicon on this site and built a Tinozza for the 2020 Special Edition Build Off
Special Edition Build Off - Tinozza style

How could I have forgotten that beauty? Great detail on the whole build too.

 

[Filip Sever]

Plans and constructions tips for the Mottola Tinozza ABG
Tinozza Acoustic Bass Guitar (liutaiomottola.com)

It's a really nice bass, but it is, in many respects, quite the opposite of what I'm looking for. The main idea of the Tinozza is to emulate the sound of an upright bass (including things like the very low sustain, for example). Acoustic power was far from being a priority here, as far as I can tell.