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Double Bass Action at the nut question

Apr 15, 2021
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On my MK Bass, I think the action at the nut is too low - when A and E plucked, they buzz because as I understand, strings touch the fingerboard somewhere. E buzzes more than A. If action is set nominal at the end of the fingerboard with an Allen key, and there's still buzz for free strings, the only way to fix it is to raise the string at the nut. But what throws me out, is when I play half-position F on E string, buzz disappears, even if F plucked more vigorously than empty E. How come there's no longer buzz while the "action" right below the spot where I press for note F on E string is even lower than action for free E string immediately below the nut?
What is nut action set to on your bass? On mine a standard business card does not fit between E string and the finger board right below the nut, but more than fits under the G string. The action there gets smaller going from G side to E side. Is that wrong?
 
The way you're plucking the string may have something to do with the buzz. Pulling the string away from the fingerboard in the plucking stroke can accentuate buzz. Pulling the string parallel to the fingerboard tends to reduce buzz.

You can temporarily test raising the string's action at the nut by placing a shim between the string and the nut slot; a convenient shim would be a fitted single piece of business card or thicker cardboard. That may solve your buzz problem, but it will probably make that string harder to play in low positions. You may really need the fingerboard to have more relief for that string.

Are you using the stock strings that came with this instrument?

The kind of strings used and the amount of relief in the fingerboard have a lot to do with the action at the nut. Usually a business card thickness is the approximate nut clearance for thin metal high tension strings like the stock strings with MK EUBs, and that is associated with relatively mild relief in the fingerboard. In contrast, usually thick low tension synthetic or gut strings nearly or even actually touch the fingerboard at the nut, and have much more relief in the fingerboard.

Similarly, action at the end of the fingerboard should be lower for thin metal high tension strings (~3mm to ~8mm), and higher for thick low tension synthetic or gut strings (~5 to ~10mm). Action should be higher for the thicker strings than for the thinner strings (ie: E highest, G lowest). This is also dependent on how the instrument is played.

Usually relief will be set at approximately the thickness of each string at around the octave on the fingerboard; relief on an EUB or on a double bass is something to go to a luthier to have adjusted.

Transparency: I play and maintain setup on a double bass. Many things will be the same on an EUB, but there may be some differences to be aware of. If I'm off the mark for your MK EUB, I expect there will be people posting corrections pretty soon. Good luck with all this!
 
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If the board is properly dressed, the nut can have zero height, but dressing directly in front of the nut is not easy unless the nut is removed (and still not easy then).
A luthier can put a shim below the nut to raise it a bit and adjust the string grooves where needed.
Also the board can be dressed a bit then.

I would never go down to 3 mm at the end of the fingerboard, hard not to get a buzz and impossible to catch the string to really pluck it (you can only touch it, but not pull it). It is a playing technique for some to rather touch than pluck and use stronger amplification, but I won’t recommend it. I feel the sound suffers and dynamic range of pizzicato is reduced that way.
Even for steel I would not go lower than 4.5 mm. 6 mm for synthetics.
 
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I would never go down to 3 mm at the end of the fingerboard, hard not to get a buzz and impossible to catch the string to really pluck it (you can only touch it, but not pull it). It is a playing technique for some to rather touch than pluck and use stronger amplification, but I won’t recommend it. I feel the sound suffers and dynamic range of pizzicato is reduced that way.
Even for steel I would not go lower than 4.5 mm. 6 mm for synthetics.

I don't disagree with you there, at least not much...

As an example of one of the exceptions you site: One of my favorite local pro jazz/bebop players (on an Eminence EUB) has his action with Spiro Mitts at around 3mm. I've watched him play for hours; his technique is inspirational, his Eminence setup is immaculate, he's heavily amped and really barely touches the strings. A great player. As a synthetic player I've been jealous of his action, but really I could never play like he does.

Lately, dealing with hand issues, I have my action ranging from ~6.35mm [~1/4"] (E) to ~4.76mm [~3/16"] (G). I get away with it, but my fingerboard has huge relief, I primarily play acoustically with other acoustic instruments, and I'm pretty careful how I pluck (and I lightly tap instead of slap). I'm actually surprised this works, but I'd be hesitant to try much lower action than that on my DB. In my experience with my DB, my hands and synthetic strings, if the action is too high I get buzzing because I just can't press the strings down well enough.
 
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John Goldsby plays that way just letting rotate the fingertip in a circle and more or less touching the string when the rotating finger get towards the string.
(John might correct me, he might have a different perspective.)

It is possible to play fast that way (but I cannot anyway), but you need more amplification and I feel the attack is a bit weak that way.
But it is not the sound I like. I want to get partly under the string not only above it to pluck as far as I wish and control the time when I release the string. That is not possible with 3 mm.
BTW, my E is somewhere between 9 mm (Spiro) and 10 to 11 mm (synthetic core).
Also the lower the action, the higher the risk of buzzing notes with a non-optimal dressed fingerboard.

It is my personal preference. I know other players go a lot lower and it is possible but often only with a certain playing approach that I don‘t like too much soundwise.

I just wanted to make clear what consequences such a low action will have. Everyone can decide what‘s the best personally.

The buzzing E might show that the fingerboard at or around the fingered F is too high.
 
Thanks guys for the feedback. Attached is a photo of what I did shortly after receiving the instrument about a year ago. You can see I raised each string by placing plastic shims on the nut - they're made from pieces of electrical wire insulation - cut along they have half-barrel profile that fits the shape of the string and gets into grooves on the nut better than flat shims. This did stop the buzz entirely, but this quick fix is not suppose to be a "proper" solution. The action now is about 0.35mm (the thickness of my business card, I think - typical one). The card fits easily under each string now, but does not fall off, so I'm assuming the action is the same as the card thickness, 0.35mm. The strings are Tomastic Spirocores, I think medium tension. These are NOT the ones that Mirko installs by default, but I've ordered the bass to be made with these in mind, he installed this set, so he knew how to accommodate and set up the nut for these particular strings. He is an expert making MK's so would know the difference in thickness, tension etc. of strings he had on hand before the instrument was even built. That includes "dressing" the board, I don't believe it was done incorrectly, although could probably be improved. Yes, playing now is a bit harder, especially near the nut - it takes more force to stop on F on E string that without shim, but that's expected. Plucking technique always matters, but I don't believe one can stop circular motion of a string if it's plucked side ways, parallel to the fingerboard rather than pulled away from it and released. In this case of course it will initially slam into the board, but that's one instant event, not sustained buzz when it repeatedly touches fingerboard as vibration dies out. I'm thinking of making the nut itself adjustable so a flat shim goes under it rather than have individual shims under each string. Then it can not only be raised/adjusted, but left and right side can be raised by different amount if needs be. Is this a bad idea? Glues in place nut is of course always better, but I'm thinking if I replace (keep replacing) strings to find optimal ones, every new kind will require new nut setup anyway. Filing deeper groves is one-way street, this can be done without replacing it, but if I need to raise strings of filed too deeply by mistake, a new nut is in order unless I can make it adjustable by swapping out, say, thin sheet metal shims under it. It would be simple enough to make it such that prevents the nut from moving up as strings being tightened when tuned. Like a couple of small pegs it will sit on. Is adjustable nut a bad idea in general? Such feature will be rarely used, but the same argument applies to the bridge, and nevertheless, these days they are being made adjustable. Oh, BTW, my other cheap EUB (Stagg) does not have this buzz - the same Spirocore strings and the same action under the nut (AND near the end of the fingerboard - 6, 7, 8 and 9mm under G, D, A and E respectively), the same playing technique...
 

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Yes, those are Spiro Mittels. There’s no reason for you to reinvent the wheel here. Spend a buck on a small sheet of wood veneer from a craft store, pop the nut off with a gentle tap on the side, and cut a section of veneer the size and shape of the nut. If this operation yields too much string height, sand the veneer accordingly. You won’t need to glue everything in place because string tension will hold everything together.
 
I was told to glue the nut to the neck with one or two drops of superglue. A tsp at the side will separate the nut from the neck, but just in case the sideways force from the strings at the nut (depends on the angle of the strings towards the pegs) is not neutralized (like on my 5-string Clevinger) it prevents the nut moving sideways.

It makes more sense to have several nuts with different nut groove widths than one that is height adjustable.
Use a shim if the he nut is too low or make a new nut.
 
John Goldsby plays that way just letting rotate the fingertip in a circle and more or less touching the string when the rotating finger get towards the string.
(John might correct me, he might have a different perspective.)

It is possible to play fast that way (but I cannot anyway), but you need more amplification and I feel the attack is a bit weak that way.
But it is not the sound I like. I want to get partly under the string not only above it to pluck as far as I wish and control the time when I release the string. That is not possible with 3 mm.
BTW, my E is somewhere between 9 mm (Spiro) and 10 to 11 mm (synthetic core).
Also the lower the action, the higher the risk of buzzing notes with a non-optimal dressed fingerboard.

Hi @DoubleMIDI,

When I strike the string, I come from the top into the fingerboard, pull from under the string and go through it…fast. That’s the technique I learned from Dave Holland. Most players pull the string, hang on it, and then let it snap out from under their finger. I go through it. I’d say I get a very big sound this way… and it allows for a large range of dynamics, from loud to soft, but still with intensity.

I play often with no amp, and with no problem. I don’t rely on the amplified sound, except as a monitor for the other musicians on stage. BTW, thanks for the shout out… My string height is about the same as yours: 8 or 9 mm on the G string with Thomastik, higher with the Genssler strings.

Thanks for your comments!

 
Hi @DoubleMIDI,

When I strike the string, I come from the top into the fingerboard, pull from under the string and go through it…fast. That’s the technique I learned from Dave Holland. Most players pull the string, hang on it, and then let it snap out from under their finger. I go through it. I’d say I get a very big sound this way… and it allows for a large range of dynamics, from loud to soft, but still with intensity.

I play often with no amp, and with no problem. I don’t rely on the amplified sound, except as a monitor for the other musicians on stage. BTW, thanks for the shout out… My string height is about the same as yours: 8 or 9 mm on the G string with Thomastik, higher with the Genssler strings.

Thanks for your comments!


Great playing! Great sound! Great solo! Thanks John, you are very inspiring...One of the first bass book that I bought maybe 35 years ago was your "Bass Notes" (with the cassette tape included...). Great book, like "Jazz bass book".
 
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Thanks guys for the feedback. Attached is a photo of what I did shortly after receiving the instrument about a year ago. You can see I raised each string by placing plastic shims on the nut - .
Normally you take the nut off and put a business card or something similar under the nut. Then if its too high you can file the slots. Easier to take off wood then add it. Things under the string never stay there
 
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Normally you take the nut off and put a business card or something similar under the nut. Then if its too high you can file the slots. Easier to take off wood then add it. Things under the string never stay there

Hey @dperrott ! I’m curious… what’s the going price around NYC to just carve & fit a new nut?
 
Hi @DoubleMIDI,

My string height is about the same as yours: 8 or 9 mm on the G string with Thomastik, higher with the Genssler strings.

I was talking about my E string height, not G string.

BTW, see you at the fourth university big band festival in Bonn sunday in a week.
I’m not sure if I bring my own bass or play the university jazz bass then.
 
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BTW, see you at the fourth university big band festival in Bonn sunday in a week.
I’m not sure if I bring my own bass or play the university jazz bass then.

Great ... the workshop in Bonn will be fun! Looking forward to seeing you & all the rhythm section folks ...